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Sonic 1 prototype Video (FAKE) This one had some of us going for awhile....

#151 User is offline evilhamwizard 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:27 PM

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Like I said before, the smoking gun for really early prototypes of the game like this is supposed to be is the speed of Sonic himself. Supposedly at one point (even while the game was being play tested), Sonic used to be too fast. In these videos, it doesn't look like it. I don't know if they tuned it down for the toy fair demo or not.

But really, the thing that killed this for me is the border. Even in the original screenshots, you can see that there's a border around the frame that takes the same color as the color of the sky. If the game were truly being played from a console, you would see something like that. But in the videos, there's a black border instead. Not sure if there could be a reason for that, but to me that's a dead give away. Unless it's not being played from a console (har har), but the end of the first video implies that it is.
This post has been edited by evilhamwizard: 07 February 2012 - 01:31 PM

#152 User is offline Metal Man88 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:38 PM

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As for Naka's memory, I get the idea that if he had more memory of the earlier versions than he did, he probably would have mentioned that already.

As for this fake, it's just the same confirmation bias human beings have in general.

Nothing much to see here, except a guy obviously trying to trick people into believing something that isn't real. You know what happens with real betas?

They get sold for high amounts, posted up on the internet, or hoarded and hidden out of sight by jealous collectors.

#153 User is offline Sik 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:38 PM

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View PostRGX, on 07 February 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Hey guys. I'm no expert of the specs or limitations of the genesis but do graphics usually cut off when playing? For example, sprites will sometimes be sliced in half? It happens to the trees a few times in the videos.
Bad programming can cause that... though pretty sure that never happens in the Sonic games. I'd like to say that's a tearing issue there (which would give it away as being a PC program), but only the palmtree is affected, not the entire image.

View Postevilhamwizard, on 07 February 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

But really, the thing that killed this for me is the border. Even in the original screenshots, you can see that there's a border around the frame that takes the same color as the color of the sky. If the game were truly being played from a console, you would see something like that. But in the videos, there's a black border instead. Not sure if there could be a reason for that, but to me that's a dead give away. Unless it's not being played from a console (har har), but the end of the first video implies that it is.
We can't even see if it's a TV or a monitor or whatever, the room is way too dark. I tried brightening the image in GIMP, but it seems that only black is stored, so I can't tell its shape, period. But I'm pretty sure there's a border there... a black one, at that (slightly blue tinted due to CRT recording shenanigans).

#154 User is offline Endri 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:47 PM

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View PostEduardo Knuckles, on 07 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

View PostEndri, on 06 February 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

At this point, I'm now actually more interested in how much long does this debate about this hoax being real or not lives on! :v:
Don't call this as hoax, because no one of us are completely sure of if this is or no in fact a hoax or a real video.
Say that for yourself. I AM completely sure that this is a fan game, and I bet my status as a tech member on it.

This "proto" game uses pixel-perfect collisions. Pixel-perfect. This by itself should be already enough evidence, since Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3 and Knuckles uses "sensorial rays" for collisions with planes, and square-to-square collisions for the sprites. The "sensorial rays" method of collision is prone to a few bugs since, if no collision array height is detected by the rays, the collision will not have response. This "proto", however,

View PostEndri, on 06 February 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Also, notice, at 0:13 in the video, how when Sonic jumps, he makes a perfect square collision with the edge of the higher ledge.

In the actuall Mega Drive games, Sonic jumping sprite would start to enter/overlapse the ledge after his center was 4 pixels above the ledge height, due to how the collision works in the Mega Drive's Sonic engine.


Now, are you telling me that Yuji Naka went from a good and modern collision engine to an archaic and more prone to bugs collison method? The collision response shown in this "proto" video is the default collision method used in most pre-made game-making engines, like, well, MMF. This method of collision in the Motorola 68000 would be as slow as polygon-to-polygon collisions were 8 years ago in 3D games.

There are many other discrepancies as well: the initial jumping impulse value is different from the Mega Drive Sonic games, the gravity is different, and also, it seems like the gravity is different when going upward than when going downward, and it looks evidently like something you see in most MMF Sonic fan games. Now, I could give you that the jump could have been different in the betas than they are in the final version (since later in the delelopment, Sonic had to be slowed down), but I doulbt that the gravity would be that inconsitent.

More on that,

View PostThe Taxman, on 06 February 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, the camera stays fixed in the center and has no 'slack' when the player is in the air or changes direction (32 pixels X, 64 pixels Y). Now, I can accept that of all the prototypes, Sonic 1 would have the most changes to the gameplay as it evolved, but the amount of graphical and gameplay discrepancies between the original screenshot and Sonic 1 in general pretty much make this a clear "LOL MMF" hoax for me.
.

About the graphical discrepancies, Rika Chou made a very important point that I, myself, personally didn't notice at first, if it wasn't for her point it out:

View PostRika Chou, on 06 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Besides every other thing pointed out so far:

The magazine scan shows a flat ground, nowhere to be seen in the video. (only small slopes like from the final.)

Also this seems impossible:

Posted Image

How Sonic is behind the grass, but in front of the bush.
Now, do I have to walkthrough all of you on how the VDP works?

#155 User is offline Eduardo Knuckles 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

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View PostEndri, on 07 February 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

This "proto" game uses pixel-perfect collisions. Pixel-perfect. This by itself should be already enough evidence, since Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3 and Knuckles uses "sensorial rays" for collisions with planes, and square-to-square collisions for the sprites. The "sensorial rays" method of collision is prone to a few bugs since, if no collision array height is detected by the rays, the collision will not have response. This "proto", however,
Yes, I have to admit that you're really correct about this. I re-watched the video for analyze this that you said, and I noticed this. Also I'm not sure if it's my impression, but I'm feeling the lack of a RF/AV filter over it, wich makes me also think that this is really fake. It's impossible to have image of old console games in a TV without the RF/AV filtering, even if they're on a high-resolution TV or something like this. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong by talk this.
This post has been edited by Eduardo Knuckles: 07 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

#156 User is offline Sik 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:33 PM

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Stupid question: how can you determine that it's pixel-perfect collision when the only collision in the entire thing is against the floor? For all we know it could be a heightmap and it'd still work. Also, even MMF-based engines have consistent jump acceleration, meaning that the jumping code here is really crappy...

#157 User is offline Meat Miracle 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:35 PM

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View PostLanzer, on 07 February 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Figured that since were waiting on our hands for this guy to either blow our minds at an amazing discovery or go "hahaha lawl gots you f00ls!" we can talk something Sonic 1 Beta related:



Anyone see this commercial before? I ran across it recently and thought it was interesting.

Better question, does anybody know what is that music playing in the background? I want it.

edit: it's some cover of "Surfin Bird".
This post has been edited by Meat Miracle: 07 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

#158 User is offline Endri 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:53 PM

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View PostSik, on 07 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Stupid question: how can you determine that it's pixel-perfect collision when the only collision in the entire thing is against the floor? For all we know it could be a heightmap and it'd still work. Also, even MMF-based engines have consistent jump acceleration, meaning that the jumping code here is really crappy...
As I said, there is also collision against the wall. Actually, the correct way to describe it would be pixel-pefect-square-collision-to-collision-mask. You can tell the collision method because the Sonic jumping sprite slides around the edge of the ledge in a perfect square. In an actuall Mega Drive Sonic game, Sonic would start to enter inside the wall/overlapse the wall as soon as no collision were detected by the horizontal "ray."

#159 User is offline jasonchrist 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

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View PostAerosolSP, on 07 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

You must be new here :v:.

But seriously. Betas give us insight into how things could have been, which to alot of us here, is more interesting than what we have. I mean, we can look at what we have any time we want!

That is true, it's human nature to want what we can't have/didn't get. But looking at things objectively, HPZ and Wood are just not as good as the zones that did end up in Sonic 2 Final.

#160 User is offline RGX 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:05 PM

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View PostMeat Miracle, on 07 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Better question, does anybody know what is that music playing in the background? I want it.
Its some sort of remix of "Papa Oom Mow Mow" or "Surfin bird."


On topic...

Although I think its obviously fake. Is it confirmed that the up-loader indeed have this supposed beta cart? His video descriptions are very vague.

Quote

I do not sell it im sorry
If you think it fake it is your problem"


This means either:

1. He does not have the cart therefore he cannot sell it.
2. He has the cart but refuses to sell it.

So lets say its option 2...

Don't you find it odd the video quality is pretty shit with no sound considering its 2012 already? The 90s are long gone... I'm pretty sure he can get a hold of a better camera with sound by now.

This just screams hoax... Not to mention if someone did indeed had this cart, I'd assume the person would go through every length to prove its actual existence such as to show everything off such as what the cart looks like front and back, to inserting it into the genesis/megadrive and then finally playing it on the TV.

Even so, this still wouldn't confirm anything unless a dump was done. However it would give less of an impression that its "bogus".
This post has been edited by RGX: 07 February 2012 - 03:06 PM

#161 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

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The topic title should be changed to "Fooling Yuji Naka", so it's not as misguiding.

#162 User is offline Endri 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:13 PM

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View PostRGX, on 07 February 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Don't you find it odd the video quality is pretty shit with no sound considering its 2012 already? The 90s are long gone... I'm pretty sure he can get a hold of a better camera with sound by now.

This just screams hoax... Not to mention if someone did indeed had this cart, I'd assume the person would go through every length to prove its actual existence such as to show everything off such as what the cart looks like front and back, to inserting it into the genesis/megadrive and then finally playing it on the TV.
Let's just not forget that the timming is simply perfect, with the discovery/release of the prototype Resident Evil 1 for the Game Boy Color. Are we seeing a pattern here? So, I believe someone probably just wanted some attention and jumped on the prototype waggon.

View PostICEknight, on 07 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

The topic title should be changed to "Fooling Yuji Naka", so it's not as misguiding.
Hahaha!

#163 User is online Sparks 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:14 PM

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If he isn't selling it, he should dump it for free. :eng101:

#164 User is offline Cinossu 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:36 PM

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View PostICEknight, on 07 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

The topic title should be changed to "Fooling Yuji Naka", so it's not as misguiding.
Enough with this, please. We do not know for certain, especially with some of the things recently raised in this topic. If you're just going to spam it up then you know what'll happen (om nom nom).

Has anyone from here tried contacting this person on Youtube to find out how this is being played? (Cart, ROM, something else, whatever.) It might be a good opening to establish an actual rapport with the person instead of just being "lol dis b fake", and may open up the way to more "footage", etc.

#165 User is offline RGX 

Posted 07 February 2012 - 03:38 PM

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View PostSparks, on 07 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

If he isn't selling it, he should dump it for free. :eng101:


Being honest here, if this thing "was real". I'd imagine so many problems trying to sell it. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the sonic 1 alpha/beta stolen? From what I'm aware the property in question was missing from SEGA's vault. I'm not completely sure but I'd imagine some legal trouble somewhere here...

Not to mention its a piece of history... I'm sure SEGA would try to do anything in their power to get it back.

Not gonna lie... if there was no stipulations into selling the cart, I doubt "VERY MUCH" we would even be able to get a hold of it. The Sonic 1 beta is literally a goldmine easily worth thousands and thousands of dollars... Hell, maybe even millions.

The fact that it has never been dumped, no other copies known to man exists and SEGA themselves no longer have it probably makes it even that more valuable. Realistically speaking, If I was the owner, there would be no chance in hell I would give it to the community to dump it or dump it myself. It would degrade its value.

For all we know, the cart (or any copies for that matter) may not even exist anymore.
This post has been edited by RGX: 07 February 2012 - 03:42 PM

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