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The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge. The stuff that simply has no other home.

#5446 User is offline Brainulator 

Posted 20 March 2018 - 06:24 PM

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Not to mention that Tails and Ray both use yellow/orange.

#5447 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 20 March 2018 - 07:48 PM

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View PostDark Sonic, on 20 March 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

As for the Mania team having access to this art, I bet they did and chose to ignore it, as from their art alone Mighty seems to have Sonic proportions like the in game Chaotix sprites
That's probably the only thing about the Mania artwork that bothers me after seeing Oshima's concept art, both Mighty and Ray's proportions being basically the same as Sonic's while they're respectively lankier and chubbier in the size chart, making them look much less like "Sonic clones".

#5448 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 20 March 2018 - 08:52 PM

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The recently released "The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers: Volume 3" reveals the creators of all the early Sonic characters.

From the Naoto Ohshima interview:

Quote

JS: You're credited on Knuckles Chaotix as character designer. Do you know about its Mega Drive prototype called Sonic Crackers? <shows comparison screens>

NO: I don't think I was directly involved with this. But... I believe I was asked to design this character, Vector the Crocodile, and this character here, Charmy Bee.


Quote

JS: Fans think the crescent on Knuckles' chest was to be the Nike logo as part of a sponsorship deal which fell through. Is that actually true?

NO: Oh, I wouldn't know. After I became famous for designing the original Sonic the Hedgehog I had younger members of the team design subsequent characters, in the hope that they would be able to share in the series' success. So a variety of artists ended up designing the rest of the Sonic characters. Tails was designed by someone named [Yasushi] Yamaguchi, and Knuckles was... Let's see... That was the work of [Takashi] Yuda, who worked on Space Channel 5. [Manabu] Kusunoki, who you'll interview next, designed Mighty the Armadillo from Chaotix. And this one in the middle here, with the horns, was designed by a manga artist named [Takumi] Miyake. He went on to be the art director for NiGHTS.


From the Manabu Kusunoki interview:

Quote

JS: So you created the two new characters?

MK: Yes, I designed the armadillo [Mighty] and flying squirrel [Ray] characters. I did come up with backstories for them, but I can't recall them anymore. I do recall why I chose those two animals, though. In order for them to control just like Sonic did, they needed to be animals that could have the same proportions, with heads that were roughly half the size of the body. And since the game starred a hedgehog, which is a relatively obscure animal, I wanted his companions to be equally unusual.

JS: And I believe you also created characters for Knuckles Chaotix on the 32X?

MK: No, that was not me. That was a different artist working at Sega.


So Mighty and Ray were created by Kusunoki specifically for the SegaSonic arcade game and intentionally designed to have the same proportions as Sonic.

So the Naoto Ohshima illustration definitely came later, around the Chaotix era. The effort to distinguish the arcade duo from Sonic (new shoes, tall Mighty, squat Ray) was an update, not the original design. Vector would also have received his new shoes around the same time (both Sonic Band Vector and Hat, Shades & Tie Vector wore Sonic's shoes).

#5449 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 20 March 2018 - 09:04 PM

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That reinforces the theory that the image shared by Ohshima reflects an early planned roster for Chaotix. Not just because it's from the Chaotix era, but also because why would they have Ohshima redesign Mighty and Ray if they weren't planning to use them again?

As for Charmy, I'm not sure I would call game!Charmy and manga!Charmy the same character, seeing how they're so different. I've always considered the manga versions of Amy and Charmy to be prototypes of sorts, and their game counterparts to be (mostly) original characters that were loosely based on them.
This post has been edited by Blue Spikeball: 20 March 2018 - 10:52 PM

#5450 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 20 March 2018 - 10:19 PM

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View PostBlue Spikeball, on 20 March 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

As for Charmy, I'm not sure I would call game!Charmy and manga!Charmy the same character, seeing how they're so different. I've always considered the manga versions of Amy and Charmy to be prototypes of sorts, and their game counterparts to be (mostly) original characters that were loosely based on them.


We're missing like, 97% of the manga. It ran through five different monthly anthologies (magazines aimed at Second Grade, Third Grade, Fourth Grade (illustrated prose), Fifth Grade and Sixth Grade) and the bimonthly Bessatsu CoroCoro Comic Special, as well as seasonal specials (apparently). For the most part each of these magazines seemed to do their own thing.

You're probably thinking of the Charmy and Amy as drawn by Sango Morimoto, who worked on Shogaku Ninensei (the Second Grader magazine), which debuted the series. Other artists drew Amy and Charmy a LOT more on model with what would later be seen in the games:

Posted Image

Hoshino confirmed that Sega's design team were involved in the creation of the manga characters. The recently discovered Sega concept art for the manga characters is very different from Sango Morimoto's renditions, even for characters like the bully, Anton.

It's tough to say whether Morimoto's were "off" looking because his manga was the first published and the designs hadn't been fully nailed down yet, or if he was simply going off model of his own accord. All of the artists drew Dr. Eggman off-model to an extent, so the latter is very possible.

Hoshino has also mentioned that a lot of people had input on Amy's design, including editors for the manga.

#5451 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 21 March 2018 - 12:42 AM

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Thanks for all that info. Didn't the manga redesign Amy and Charmy to look closer to the game designs after the debuts of their game counterparts, though?

#5452 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 21 March 2018 - 01:58 PM

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View PostBlue Spikeball, on 21 March 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

Thanks for all that info. Didn't the manga redesign Amy and Charmy to look closer to the game designs after the debuts of their game counterparts, though?


No. That Amy is from 1992, and I'm pretty sure the Charmy image is too. The series ended in 1994, Chaotix wasn't released until 1995.

#5453 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 21 March 2018 - 02:28 PM

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Oh. In that case, I stand corrected. They weren't that different in the manga, so it's fair to call them the same characters. Now I wish we had scans of the full manga to look at their whole evolution, and see if there were any other game characters that were introduced that were first introduced in it.

#5454 User is offline ashthedragon 

Posted 21 March 2018 - 08:36 PM

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View PostPengi, on 20 March 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:


From the Naoto Ohshima interview:


Quote

JS: Fans think the crescent on Knuckles' chest was to be the Nike logo as part of a sponsorship deal which fell through. Is that actually true?

NO: Oh, I wouldn't know. After I became famous for designing the original Sonic the Hedgehog I had younger members of the team design subsequent characters, in the hope that they would be able to share in the series' success. So a variety of artists ended up designing the rest of the Sonic characters. Tails was designed by someone named [Yasushi] Yamaguchi, and Knuckles was... Let's see... That was the work of [Takashi] Yuda, who worked on Space Channel 5. [Manabu] Kusunoki, who you'll interview next, designed Mighty the Armadillo from Chaotix. And this one in the middle here, with the horns, was designed by a manga artist named [Takumi] Miyake. He went on to be the art director for NiGHTS.



...The one with the horns...? I don't recall any horned Sonic character ( except Espio but I wouldn't call it "the one with the horns")

#5455 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 21 March 2018 - 08:55 PM

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It's Espio. The book notes that the comparison screens the interviewer showed him were from this URL: http://www.nintendop...sonic-crackers/

#5456 User is offline blueswirl 

Posted 22 March 2018 - 07:41 AM

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More info (from GDC 2018) about why Sonic became a hedgehog instead of some other animal.

https://www.eurogame...-nemesis-eggman

#5457 User is offline jbr 

Posted 22 March 2018 - 11:55 AM

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View Postblueswirl, on 22 March 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

More info (from GDC 2018) about why Sonic became a hedgehog instead of some other animal.

https://www.eurogame...-nemesis-eggman


It's an interesting read, some of it doesn't quite make sense though. It says that a hedgehog was chosen because "it would transcend race, gender, ..." despite the fact Sonic is explicitly male. I always assumed it was more to do with Naka-san's engine which used ball-like physics, which obviously fits well with hedgehogs.

#5458 User is online Adamis 

Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:08 PM

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Didn't he mean that men and women would like hedgehogs equally ?

#5459 User is offline Chimera 

Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:28 PM

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Yeah even if they "GENDERED" Sonic I think the idea was girls would look at an abstract shape animal and not dissociate any more than young boys playing the game, thus putting everyone on equal footing. Calling him "him" probably came second to calling the character in front of them "sonic," some strange animal creature whos species they barely heard of before then.

#5460 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 22 March 2018 - 01:37 PM

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Heh. Imagine if they had gone with proto-Eggman as the main character and they had tried to make him cool.
And wow, they were even planning to have proto-Eggman curl up into a ball and roll around. I'd love to see such an interpretation.

The "What does it mean to be cool" photo is a bit too small, making the text in the blue box hard to read. I think the second and third points say the following:
* Will do anything for the sake of what matters to him
* Doesn't fight under someone else's definition of what's right
Does anyone know what the first one says? The last words seem to be "of unintentional logic", and the first one is perhaps "Actions" (unsure), but I can't make out the rest.


I like how most of the personality traits mentioned in the "cool" and "key words" screens seem to be in line with Sonic's characterization in later games. Nice to see that they stayed so faithful to his character when the series went 3d.

Edit: Derp, you can see larger versions of the photos by clicking them. I didn't realize this because my browser's script blocker was preventing the feature from working :v:
This post has been edited by Blue Spikeball: 22 March 2018 - 05:12 PM

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