Programming

Well, if you're using XNA, you'll need to implement all the underlying code for the stuff you use yourself as well. Examples being use of XNA's Vector2 class, or Quaternions - you'd need to implement those yourself. An example that shows my point more clearly is implementation of the rendering pipeline, or your own version of content management. There's a lot more to it than finding equivalences. Also, if you plan to convert it to another language eventually anyway, would it not be more sensible to implement it in your own language in the first place?

Also, you mention that no matter how good the engine you'll run into a limitation somewhere somehow with regards to E02... while this is perfectly true and valid, you're kind of trumping your point by suggesting the use of XNA rather than coding your own engine from the ground up because XNA and C# are heavily limited in terms of game development and engine control. When developing with XNA, You're essentially developing on top of a set of pre-established routines for stuff like rendering and content management, which limits your engine design considerably. C# kills most possibility of good memory management practices; again a fundamental part of game engine design - generally I'd say that XNA/C# is simply a bad idea unless you're developing for Xbox Live community games, and even then I argue to this day that they should've used a real language rather than a crippled one. I think XNA/C# is more designed for hobbyist kids to provide an easy platform for game development than it is for catering for serious development - in this regard I'd say it's not a huge amount better than using something like Game Maker.

Again I'll reiterate that this is all with the exception of development for Xbox Live Arcade/Xbox Live Community Games. Also, developing in C#/XNA with any intention of porting to other platforms in future (especially if you're considering converting to another language to do so, after having made the game in C#/XNA) is... well, a waste of time :P

... just my 2 pence.

 

At the risk of starting up another argument with jayextee, he wasn't "sticking out for you" as much as he was butthurt that I "ignored" him. Don't make the mistake of using inappropriate defenses

Strictly in the sense of being thorough, I question whether or not you used the most recent public demo, or just the very brief and very un-telling concept package at the top of the thread. You certainly didn't seem to have realized that I already pretty much talked them OUT of using E02 in the thread I started when the forum when no significant or even cooperative decisions were being made anywhere on the forum. An entirely custom engine was one of the options I listed, I don't really think it was all that necessary to make such a big deal out of how badly you wanted to avoid E02 in specific.

I disagree; I think my reaction was entirely appropriate. Felt like you came in out of nowhere just to smack me in the face, and on top, noone even thought to take a SECOND to say anything in the least about it. It might have been best if you were clear on that other point, if that's actually how you felt. Though, I question THAT because you tried your hardest to express how dumb of an idea you thought it was

Not by my understanding. C# is a total mess.. Straight C would be much quicker to develop with, and yes, you most likely would end up with something cleaner and faster. You might as well be using E02 in the first place.. it's only just as immobile, and alot of the hard work is already done for you. Once you learn to understand it, as you would with any language, it's not any less straight-forward. - That's not a pitch, just a comparison; you see what I mean. And the porting process would be much quicker if the program were originally designed in standard C, furthermore if the engine structure was designed with portability in mind in the first place. I don't imagine that migrating from C# is all that much better than having to start over again. Given you already have your concepts, but, well, that's pretty much what you started with

I'm put off by your use of the word "texture". I don't know what you mean by saying that rather than sprite, or graphic file, depending on the context. I'm happy to see that we agree on the palette issue, though

Another thing we can agree on, but some of your wording troubles me; particularly the part about "not having the proper software to develop them". Some people may not have modplug or something, but that's easy to get, and I don't currently know of any graphic program that DOESN'T support tga

Similarly, I have no problem if they don't. Noone around here really knows how to use -anything-, though. Also, I don't believe you've used the term "tact" appropriately, either. I certainly meant to offend you, I wouldn't have spoken that way otherwise. It is, in fact, you, who should have used more tact if you actually meant absolutely no offense to me. I'm never anything less than straightforward about things like that. And I also firmly believe that you should have proven yourself before you spoke up in the first place, especially considering the boldness of your claims. I could claim alot of things, but I've never claimed anything that I hadn't already shown. I'd prefer everyone else to do the same, but that's generally seems to be too much to ask of anyone. It's not the aspiration, it's the baseless claims

I wouldn't expect you not to try. However, "outdo" is pretty much only a subjective term at this point, considering the difference between E02 and what you'd want to do solely for this project, and the fact that all "Sonic" aspects of the Sonic engine built with it are nearly as technically accurate as possible, so you're really aiming for something more direct in core structure, potentially with other features not inherently necessary to a Sonic the Hedgehog game

Have at it

 

Fixed. Unnecessary.

 

Touche', salesman...

 

Perhaps I should've phrased it better, but in anycase a 'thank you' couldn't possibly hurt anything.

I apologize for that, I probably did go a bit too far with E02.

I'm not sure where you getting the whole C# is a total mess thing, but whatever. That's my programming language, that's what I'll be using. Any constructive criticisms of my code and any ways to make it more optimized are more than welcome, though.

I meant graphic file. The posts I've been making have been so large that certain words and such aren't exactly as I intended.

Again, my posts a large and take a while to make, so my wording might seem to suggest things I didn't inted. I'd think that they could use modular music and .TGA, but I'm trying not to assume anything.

Uh, I think it might be smart to rephrase that. You're practically insulting everyone in this entire forum.

For the last time, I think I've pretty much said over and over again that my claims are baseless. When I decided I would try to help out, I wanted to figure out as quickly as possible if the project had a need for me. I have no public works to show, and I didn't want to spend time on the project until I was sure they needed a programmer. I haven't started yet, so if the team decides that they want to program this in C or use E02 instead of using C#, there isn't any problem.

Well, I meant outdo as in if there are any features that E02 didn't have that the project needs, then it would be added. Again, these are large posts, and even though I might be somewhat rude from time to time it isn't intentional, and I can't spend the time to triple check everything to make it completely political correct so to speak.

Plus half the time when I'm typing them I don't mean them to be as literal as they come out. I don't really hold any strong convictions on most anything in project, as most of it isn't my decision to make. Don't take my wording so literally.

One question I have though, why are you attacking me? Even though I did appear from the blue with baseless claims, you've attacked the only programmer (me) interested in helping out, and you're barely involved with this project. This might have been my fault for unintentionally insulting you, but again, it wasn't intentional.

Now I've tried to go out of my way to be nice, respectful, honest and have even tried to apologize twice now. This has been a simple misunderstanding, is it at all possible that we can get past this Stealth?

 

Context - Noone around here with any significant interest in this project knows how to use anything that would be of use in developing a decent engine for this game to use. Better?

My point was that I don't make a large presentation for something that doesn't even exist. I never understand why anyone else actually does; it's essentially meaningless, and it can cause offense. I imagine it'd be in your best interest not to reveal too many failed intentions anyway, and your presentation would have been much more powerful had it including a functional build of any real quality. As an example, but to a lesser degree, they had no idea I was going to build a first-level prototype, and if they did, I doubt it would have generated even as much interest as it did after the release. It loses it's impact

I've explained that I thought the entire thing was improper in the first place; that's my stance. It really wouldn't have been that difficult anyway.. you demonstrated that you clearly had no regard for any specifics about the project whatsoever; the only information you had was outdated information about the use of E02 that was posted in the thread you responded to. If you had any other real interest in the project, I would have guessed that you'd take a more thorough look at the forum before you declared your intentions

Say what you mean, don't say what you don't mean. I also find this to be a project where the programmer actually has more room to care about the overall product, and I would've expected that anyone that took that position would. Given that certain I/O decisions haven't been made, and you "don't really hold any strong convictions", you don't even know half of what you're going to be programming

Not that it's any of your business, but I DO have a life, with other projects and other responsibilities. Not that that has anything to do with how well E02 works (really, I don't see what difference that makes at this point when the more broad issue of me being "such a great programmer" comes into play, or what that in specific has to do with S:PR when it's not even the chosen platform), but I don't actually have the kind of time I'd need to properly dedicate myself to that position at the moment. That's asside from the fact that I HAVE made contributions, in the form of the demonstration, and the thread. Hell, I contributed just today.. what do you think that business at the end of the first post I made was about? I took the time to work shit out to some degree with jayextee just a bit ago, and I'm still bothering with you

I wasn't aware that I wasn't being civil at this point

 

By the way, I respect C# as much as I respect LOLCODE.

The day this project uses C# is the day this project completely loses credibility.

 

I actually respect LOLCODE more than C#. Seriously.

For GUIs? I may understand, as with GUIs these days you probably can be a lot sloppy. But for games? C'mon! Reminds me of GDNet, where most of the members are C# and Phyton fanboys and can't understand how programmers can work without them. The funny thing is that when asked, their arguments aren't exactly solid. It isn't uncommon to see how many of them shame C/C++ only because you have to compile the code. Yes, I'm being fucking serious

And about the modules vs. OGG dispute: the good point of modules is that effects can be easily applied to them. They can be looped properly, and their tempo can be changed if the player allows for it - which can be useful for the supersneakers speed up effect, though you'll probably end up using a different BGM for that.

 

*sigh*

I'm done trying to appease you.

I meant I don't really hold any strong convictions as in that I'm willing program what the team needs, not what I think it does. Besides, I already know most of what I'm going to be programming, and that's Sonic's engine.

I could care less about impact. Unlike you, I'm not a rogue programmer. My intention was to outline what I'd be programming so that the team could tell me what they wanted and then incorporate it as I'm building the engine. Impact may generate interest, but interest really means nothing to me. What matters to me is that the engine is designed for the team so they actually can make progress. As long as the team has a project leader and an artist, I'm good to go. My willingness to program something is not based on how popular it is, but rather how good it is. I'm trying to do what's in the best interests of this team rather than what's in the best interest for me.

I don't have a fast internet connection, loading the pages takes a while. If I did I assure you I would have done a lot more research on the project and E02 as well.

And you just assume I don't!? I have a life with other projects and responsibilities as well, I just happen to have the free time to work on this on weekends. You have accused me of being rude, but so far you've shown yourself to be more rude, arrogant, and offensive than anyone I've seen on these forums, and one of the most I've seen on any forum for that matter.

This is how you make contributions!? Attacking anyone who dared to defy the all-powerful programmer of E02? Insulting anyone who wants to help, and everyone who has contributed to this project so far? I have absolutely no respect for your opinion anymore. You seem to have no concept of the word team, you seem to just criticize and tear apart anything that isn't yours and tell everyone what they can and cannot do. I don't care how good you are, if this is the way you 'contribute' to a project I feel sorry for any project that is unfortunate enough to have you.

I have had enough of you.

I had offered my programming skills to help Jayextee and his team complete this project, not to please you or to make a cool engine that I could throw in everyone's face.

I have tried my best to correct any misunderstanding, tried to be as civil as I could and continually apologized for certain errors in my posts, and you still have nothing better to do than insult me.

I have tried to explain that my claims are exactly what they are: claims. I never said that it was anything but. I actually posted here to learn what the team wanted, so that I could be sure that any engine I make supports them. If that means that game performance isn't as high as E02, so be it.

I have tried to explain that I would let the other members involved in the project know exactly what I was doing so that they could offer corrections, suggestions and requests while I developed the engine so that this project will be 100% what Jayextee and the others want, not what you or I want.

If this project will ever be completed it will need to be based on the team's needs, not yours or mine.

This will be my last post in this thread until I have something to show the team, so that the team can give their input to make this project the best that it can be.

EDIT: And by the way, has anyone here actually used C#? Can anyone who has actually programmed with C# and one of these other magical languages I'm hearing about tell me why C# is the considered so terrible? I've never had any problems with it. Those that I know of who work with C# have never said "You should use a different language to program with".

 

Yes. I'm not talking out of my ass here. I know C# quite well and I wrote some programs with it. When I say that it sucks I'm not going by common belief, I'm actually comparing it to superior languages like C (which I also know and use). Just like I am allowed to say that Java sucks too, because I (sadly) had the chance to use Java as well. All these new languages are just a way to reduce the performances of your programs by adding layers and layers of overhead for NOTHING.

 

I noticed that some important points emerged today. Palette, engine, music files, platform/programming language.
These points are more important than some may think. All the work in this project depends on what limitations the contributors have when, uh, contributing.
I originally believed that the music format was going to use OGG, but if it actually ends up using modules, well, the range of possibilities increase (considering how many effects are possible with them).
And if the sprites do not need to strictly follow the 16 color palette limit, it is best if we know this now, so we can start to use more colors (but that doesn't mean there isn't a limit. Even if we can use more than 16 colors, we still need a limit, or we will go overboard).

 

Okay, this back and forth shit is fucking ridiculous. Here's my ultimatum:

To both sides—present a proof-of-concept. Provide a proof-of-concept of your version of the engine, and then we can see what people prefer, what is most feasible, and what will ultimately work best for this project. Both sides have established their position as much as it's going to be established, so now it's about action. Phantron should take his idea of an engine and prep it with project materials. Stealth, or anyone else interested in using E02 should do the same. Once you're both done, present what you have and let the project leaders and community decide which they would rather prefer. If it ends up being a less optimized engine, if it ends up using retarded formats, and if it ends up doing all these things that aren't the most technically sound choices that could be made? That's their decision.

I think we've definitely had enough theory here. If we're going to use E02, we need an E02 programmer. If we're going to use this engine, then we presumably have a programmer. People are only going to work with what they choose to work with, best choice or not. Let's get shit settled.

 

Finally. I agree completely. That would mean the team has multiple options (always a good thing) for the engine and will be able to choose whichever one works better. It's a win-win scenario for me, as it gives me some competition to work against and the team should get exactly what they want in the end, regardless of which engine they choose.

I know I said I wouldn't post here until I had something to show, but Tweaker's post really set things straight here (atleast for me). I'll do what I can with C#, and although it's 'bloated and slow', it should be more than capable of running a retro Sonic game at a good framerate.

 

What?

You may not need sound currently, but you certainly need graphics and input. You currently don't even seem to know much about how "Sonic's engine" works, given your question about the tiling method, and the way you completely trivialized all other aspects. That's also not to mention the comment "as long as Sega didn't do anything weird in their code somewhere". You're going to see that, because it was done WELL. Mr Yuji Naka is one of the few programmers I actually have active respect for. Furthermore, you haven't even expressed that you have any experience whatsoever with ANY form of assembly language, or the Genesis as a development platform.

If they knew, it would be laid out already, but if it was, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered to spend the time it would take to load up a couple more threads and actually learn about the project. You also fail to realize that I'm talking about INSPIRATION, not popularity. If interest generates inspiration, then there is success. They can think I'm badass all they want and it won't otherwise do any good. Screw you for implying that I'm that petty

Boo-hoo. I had dial-up for the longest damned time, and even suffered through 14.4 while everybody else was already using broadband, and I STILL made time to actually research shit I was going to post to. The world didn't stop for me, it's not going to stop for you. Quit whining for pitty and suck it up

I never said anything about you, the implication you made was that I was just some sort of jerkass for not taking on this project that way, and I responded to that implication. I haven't said a damned thing about your life or responsibilities, you read that out of thin-air entirely of your own accord. Be offended by me, I'm happy. I don't have any problem being offensive when I find it appropriate, and I certainly don't think I ought to waste any more good humor on you. My middle-two responses were decent, and I stated nothing but relevant facts. If you can't properly rebut them and that makes you uncomfortable, that's your own problem, not mine.

My contributions were the kick-off I tried to start with the E02 demonstration, and the long and long-thought thread I posted to kick the project in the ass when it was stagnating, which happened to lead to the introduction of the current new project leaders, and at least got SOME proper discussion to happen for a little while. That is what I already SAID to you. Also, yes, I believe that combating your ignorance and challenging you to actually prove useful is contributive toward this project. You feel sorry that there's someone with any SENSE getting involved with this project? I'd feel sorry for YOU, if I liked you

The feeling is mutual. We don't agree on many things, but when we do, they're doozies

I made a "cool engine that I could throw in everyone's face" long before S:PR, because I felt like challenging myself to do so and creating something generally useful as a result. E02's involvement in this project at all was strictly a choice of the original project leaders, not mine

They were nothing that I didn't accept, and I don't see how this post is very civil. I don't recall actually getting hostile with you after my initial post. If I wanted to insult you, I'd say that you were the spawn of your mother having wild raunchy sex with her brother, because she's just that much of a filthy whore. I haven't said anything that wasn't just a simple fact. If the facts are insulting to you, maybe you should work on changing them.

I never ignored anything that you had properly "explained". Your claims in themselves were done with early-on in this "discussion", and any more mention of any relation was more involved in discussion of my personal taste in how those things are treated. If that upsets you this much, again, it's your problem.

Your description wasn't so exact that they could actually give that kind of feedback. What you want should be relevant-enough if you were to become the programmer, same as me. What either of us want is just as relevant at this point anyway, considering the openness of this being a "community project". That, however, doesn't mean they control how I develop E02, as it was developed entirely independently of this project, nor does it mean that I have absolute expectations for them to use E02 just because I'm here and I built it. That implication, at this point, should be futile, as I've already discussed how I feel about that, which is nearly the exact opposite of how you want to spin it.

"Team" "Team" "Team". Buzzwords.. sure it's about the team, or rather, it's about the best interest of the project, but it all sounds the same when you're talking out your ass. Using names like "team", "community", or whatever when you're trying to pull your ass out of the fire only makes it worse, not better.

 

http://stealth.emulationzone.org/E02/index.php
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/Games/E02...trix-SAGE08.rar
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/S4/S4D1.rar

What do I win?

Seriously, that was kinda dumb. E02 is THERE. It's FULLY capable of being used to create a COMPLETE and ACCURATELY-FUNCTIONING Sonic the Hedgehog game, as demonstrated by my own demo release MONTHS ago in the middle link, and the concept package from the BOTTOM link that I ALREADY posted (and is at the top of this thread, no less) to try and show this project's work in motion. Did it help? No. Noone is actually willing to do anything substantial. If they were, they would have been prototyping the hell out of this game using E02, or even something else, already. Crap, they could use GM or TGF just to get some basic points across.. but they don't. Don't ask me why; I don't know. They have graphics. They want to see the graphics? SLAP IT IN THERE. WOO. It moves, it works JUST like a "real" Sonic the Hedgehog game. They can look at their pretty colors, they can half-ass some enemies and obstacles just to see them in practice.. This is what jayextee asked for from this guy, but guess what! It already exists!

I can't stress enough - I DO NOT CARE IF THE FINAL PRODUCT USES E02. I BASICALLY TALKED THEM OUT OF IT PERSONALLY, AND I DON'T CARE. HOWEVER, if they change their mind, that's fine too. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY USE MY SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE IT'S MINE. What MATTERS is that SOMEHOW, it's done RIGHT, and people KNOW what is available and KNOW what they can do, which they obviously DON'T if they're complaining that they can't see anything in action when this is RIGHT HERE.

HOW can you argue that?

Edit-
For those of you just tuning in, I'd like to apply a little context here by reminding everyone that E02 initially became involved in this project by choice of the original project leaders, in some of the earliest days of the original, separate "Sonic 4" forum. I was contacted by both then-leader Phoebius, and then-lead-artist Rika, and was ASKED if they could use E02. I told them I had no problem with it, and Phoebius proceded to create an E02 forum below the ProSonic forum. After a significant period of time with no posts incoming to either thread, nor any discussion whatsoever about the project's engine, for that matter, I whipped up a concept and posted it to try and get the ball rolling; that concept being the one that was reposted at the beginning of this thread. More time passed, this forum was created, and more time still, before I noted that NO solid decisions had been made about the structure, which prompted me to create this thread in hopes of trying to start some substantial discussion, in which I argued both for AND against E02, among other things. Still yet, no firm decision has been made, and we come to this

 

A wall of text! :D

Cool. So then we do have a proof-of-concept!

Here's my question to the rest of you—what is your opinion on this proof of concept? Does it contain the kind of physics and gameplay you're looking for? Does it have the capability to display the art you draw for it? Is it possible to do all the things you want to do with this game in it? If so then you already have an engine. The question is, why hasn't anything gone past this?

Are there any programmers other than Stealth who have even bothered to try and learn how E02 works and make a game with it? Anyone? Because if not, then... well, that's why this game doesn't have an engine. E02 is perfect for what this project needs, but it seems everybody expects Stealth to do all the work. I have no idea if he's willing to take up a programming-based role for this game or not, but somebody needs to.

What do you guys prefer? An optimized, largely-portable-to-other-systems engine with programming philosophies like the ones Stealth described earlier, or something that may or may not be as optimized or technically spiffy as it could be, using stuff such as PNG, OGG, and the like? You have to make the decisions on what kind of audio you want to use more than anything else, because what you choose directly affects who is going to be able to produce it; conversely, the engine you choose will change what kind of audio you're able to use. Make the call, and make it quick—because if you don't, it's all worth dick.

(Okay, I'm proud of that one.)

Huh. Alright then—can I ask something from both you and Phantron here?

I want to ask you two to please lay out the types of things your engines support (or in the latter case, will support). The types of limitations they have, the types of formats they support, what needs to be done to put certain things in-game, etc etc. In the case of E02, Stealth, I already know you have a website with this information available, but do you mind pasting it on here or summarizing it for the sake of contrast? This way nobody can say they don't know what either engine supports, and they can make their decision right now.

This can't be blown off any longer. People, you need to say what you're going to need or want, and make that decision now. No more beating around the bush. It's all about progress.

 

I don't know how to start this; mostly because I don't know how to finish it, either. I was asked for this, so rather than let it hang, here goes:

As I always say, because I'm uncomfortable with discussing it any other way, E02 does what it does, and it doesn't do what it doesn't do. The best way to find out would be through a few links I'll provide, some of which I've already posted. The E02 mainpage in particular is a decent summary, and is all one on one page, but it has a few pictures, and I think it's a bit big to post here in it's entirety. Honestly, if somebody wants in on this aspect of the project but can't click on a link and view a single-page summary to find out more, I have serious doubts about their commitment.. Anyway, if it's important, try having a look at the summary page:
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/E02/index.php

Also, for a closer look at the player system, for the sake of modifying player character gameplay, take a look at the system's new documentation in HTML format:
Player Management.html
Player Variables.html
Character Def.html

To learn more about what you can use to manipulate the player, objects, environment, events, menus, etc., see the complete command index listing (by order of ID):
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/E02/Docs/Functions.html

If it is still of actual interest, don't forget to also view the latest Sonic gameplay demo, if you haven't already seen it (there are full levels that make use of many features not used in the small concept package included at the beginning of this thread), and also look at the included documentation for even more information on how to get the game to behave just the way you want:
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/Games/E02...trix-SAGE08.rar

I don't know if anyone currently active in the project is actually ready to start on the programming aspects, but it doesn't seem so. There are some basics that still don't have firm decisions, like some of the discussed format issues. However, this remains an option for testing ideas. I can't currently take on this responsibility, but if anyone is willing to learn (and really, I don't believe it to be all that difficult when given the chance), they could begin using it to show off concepts in motion right now. If you want more later, you can still get some rough drafts done to get a handle on what you're doing, and move on when the time comes. If you want to work with a more restricted platform later, it certainly won't hinder you in that respect, either. If nothing better ends up coming along, it will still be a decent option for creating the actual full game. If you DON'T have any significant interest in seeing any of the current work put into practice right now, and you feel that E02 would under no circumstances ever be the right choice for this project, then just skipping the whole thing is another option. I'm just providing the information I was asked for

 

I am completely dumbfounded as to why we haven't picked E02 yet.

Is this project run by apes or something?

I have a question that I couldn't seem to find at the site.

I'm assuming the sounds used in the demo are just low quality right?

 

That's right. I just recorded the music at 11k and used the sound effects from the S&K screensaver