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What is a story but a miserable pile of etc etc etc

#31 User is offline JohnBoyAdvance 

Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:44 AM

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View PostTimmiT, on 14 March 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:


That's trash, where are the Riders Trilogy, Storybook games and Knuckles Chaotix? (Which referenced the Master Emerald moving from Hidden Palace.)

Spoiler


#32 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:36 PM

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Sonic Team have had some form of oversight or involvement with every game from Sonic Adventure onwards, so I'd say almost all of them count. Pre-Sonic Adventure though, they've only indicated that Sonic 1, 2, 3&K and CD are part of the main series' continuity.

Most of the handheld/spin-off games prior to Sonic Adventure didn't really try to match up with the main series. As already mentioned, Sonic & Tails 2 (Sonic Triple Trouble) is, according to the Japanese manual, the first time Sonic encounters Knuckles. Obviously that contradicts Sonic 3. But in terms of the Game Gear games alone, it is the first time Sonic meets Knuckles. So if Sonic & Tails 2 is an alternate continuity, then it stands to reason that Sonic & Tails 1 (Sonic Chaos) is also part of that alternate continuity. At that point it just makes sense to throw the Game Gear versions of Sonic 1 and 2 in there, as well as G Sonic (Sonic Blast). Tails Adventures is by the same developer and has a couple of references to Triple Trouble, so that would probably belong to the Game Gear Sonic universe as well.

Another thing to consider is Chaotix. In the Japanese manual they go out of their way to connect the story to both Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic CD (explaining that Metal Sonic was repaired and upgraded). The team that worked on it clearly intended for it to be part of the main continuity. But Takashi Iizuka dismissed it because Sonic Team didn't work on it (he said as much in an interview, a Summer of Sonic if I recall correctly). So when Sonic Heroes came along it ignored Chaotix's story entirely and presented new versions of Vector, Espio and Charmy with different personality traits and ages, who had seemingly never met Eggman or Knuckles before. Later, Sonic 4: Episode II had its own explanation of how Metal Sonic came back after Sonic CD.

So looking at what's left, the order is probably something like:

Sonic the Hedgehog
[Sonic CD?]*
Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
[Sonic CD?]*

Sonic 4: Episode I / Sonic 4: Episode Metal
Sonic 4: Episode II

Sonic Adventure
Sonic Shuffle
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic Advance
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Heroes
Shadow the Hedgehog**
Sonic Battle
Sonic Advance 3
Sonic Riders

Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)***
Sonic Rush[?]
Sonic Rush Adventure[?]
Sonic Rivals****
Sonic and the Secret Rings
Sonic Rivals 2
Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic and the Black Knight
Sonic Free Riders
Sonic Colours
Sonic Generations
Sonic Lost World

Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure are difficult to pinpoint, mostly because of the inconsistencies of Blaze the Cat and Eggman Nega's origins throughout the series. It doesn't help that Sonic and Tails don't really interact with Blaze in Sonic 2006 or that Sonic and Tails never learn that it was Eggman Nega posing as their Eggman in Rivals 1 and 2.

Personally, I think it makes the most sense if Sonic 2006 happens first. I get the impression that Blaze sealing herself in another dimension was a sloppy attempt at linking up to Sonic Rush. It could be that when the "Prime Dimension" timeline was reset at the end of Sonic 2006, Blaze was deleted from it entirely because she was no longer tethered to it. So Blaze's history was re-written so that she was always part of the "Sol Dimension". It's messy, but I've yet to hear a better explanation.

It also makes more sense to me that both Rush games take place prior to both Rivals games, since Eggman and Eggman Nega are allies in the Rush series but have an antagonistic relationship in the Rivals series, where Nega is embarrassed of Eggman's failures. Also, since Sonic Team insist that Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant from the future is his true origin, it makes more sense that he would fabricate a story about being native to the "Sol Dimension" before the truth is revealed in Sonic Rivals.

The release order of Rush - 2006 - Rivals - Rush Adventure - Rivals 2 wouldn't really make much sense.

* It's been a popular debate for years, but Sonic CD can take place either before Sonic 2 or after Sonic 3 & Knuckles. There's been no direct confirmation from Sonic Team either way.

** In Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow doesn't have his memories back yet or know who he is. In Sonic Battle he's shown to remember a lot more. So despite being released later, Shadow the Hedgehog would have to take place before Sonic Battle to make sense. Sonic Advance 3 is a continuation of Sonic Battle's story, so it also has to take place later, despite also being released prior to Shadow the Hedgehog.

*** Sonic's first encounter with Silver the Hedgehog, but this meeting is erased via time travel by the end of the game.

**** Sonic's first encounter with Silver the Hedgehog in the altered timeline after the events of Sonic 2006.
This post has been edited by Pengi: 12 August 2017 - 04:32 PM

#33 User is offline Chimera 

Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:11 PM

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Sonic has no plot.

I like this idea better.

#34 User is offline big smile 

Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:32 AM

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Of course, the real fun is trying to make sense of Iizuka's claim that the games take place on two worlds: Sonic's world and Earth. That really makes things complicated.

Quote

Pre-Sonic Adventure though, they've only indicated that Sonic 1, 2, 3&K and CD are part of the main series' continuity.

Generations makes nods to Sega Sonic and Fighters, while Ian Flynn has stated that one of the notes given to him from Sega of Japan mentioned that Sonic R is canon.


Quote

But Takashi Iizuka dismissed it because Sonic Team didn't work on it (he said as much in an interview, a Summer of Sonic if I recall correctly). So when Sonic Heroes came along it ignored Chaotix's story entirely and presented new versions of Vector, Espio and Charmy with different personality traits and ages, who had seemingly never met Eggman or Knuckles before.

I don't think he discussed Chaotix at summer of Sonic. He did mention he considered the Chaotix in Heroes to be new recreations in a EGM interview, but it's not explicitly clear if he doesn't consider Chaotix part of the story.

Although Iizuka has said himself that although they put connections between the games, they don't think about it too much, so a lot of the 'canon' and correct order is up to the individual fan.

#35 User is offline Sodaholic 

Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:55 PM

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When placing Sonic CD, it's important to consider context. SCD started development before even Sonic 2 and was developed independently as its own sequel to Sonic 1. Sonic 3 wasn't even a thought at the time, and in its earliest planning stages they wanted to do an isometric game. Sonic 4 was a poorly developed cash-in on nostalgia made decades later. I don't care what the official company line is, Sonic CD takes place before Sonic 2 and Sonic 4 is not a proper part of the series.

When discussing the pre-Adventure games, I think it's best to take them on their own than to try working in later games. The devs had no idea what the future held for the series, they just wrote stories that worked within what material existed up to that point.

As for Chaotix, I think that Oshima wanted to continue his variant on the series. Amy was to be featured (likely as the damsel in distress again) and Metal Sonic was heavily featured. Yes, they borrowed Tails (though cut) and Knuckles from the mainline games, but it's clear that the focus was on CD's cast of characters.

#36 User is offline Kiddo Cabbusses 

Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:54 PM

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View PostSodaholic, on 17 March 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

When placing Sonic CD, it's important to consider context. SCD started development before even Sonic 2 and was developed independently as its own sequel to Sonic 1. Sonic 3 wasn't even a thought at the time, and in its earliest planning stages they wanted to do an isometric game. Sonic 4 was a poorly developed cash-in on nostalgia made decades later. I don't care what the official company line is, Sonic CD takes place before Sonic 2 and Sonic 4 is not a proper part of the series.

When discussing the pre-Adventure games, I think it's best to take them on their own than to try working in later games. The devs had no idea what the future held for the series, they just wrote stories that worked within what material existed up to that point.

As for Chaotix, I think that Oshima wanted to continue his variant on the series. Amy was to be featured (likely as the damsel in distress again) and Metal Sonic was heavily featured. Yes, they borrowed Tails (though cut) and Knuckles from the mainline games, but it's clear that the focus was on CD's cast of characters.



Even outside the "cheap cash-in" angle, Sonic 4 plot should probably be dumped for the same reasons Sonic Chronicles was (that being it's yet another aborted and abandoned plot arc that Sega will never touch again. Speaking of which, how many of those does Sonic have by now?).

#37 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

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View Postbig smile, on 17 March 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

Quote

Pre-Sonic Adventure though, they've only indicated that Sonic 1, 2, 3&K and CD are part of the main series' continuity.

Generations makes nods to Sega Sonic and Fighters, while Ian Flynn has stated that one of the notes given to him from Sega of Japan mentioned that Sonic R is canon.


Sonic 3D and Sonic R had mini-sites hosted on SonicTeam.com for the longest time, so I think Sonic Team likely consider them part of the core "brand". They even had the Sonic 3D Flickies in the Sonic X anime.

Sonic 4 and Generations throw a bit of a wrench in the works though. If we take Generations at face value then Sonic, Tails and Eggman all used to have their classic looks and at some point grew into their Adventure era looks. Going by that logic, all of the "Classic Sonic" games would have to take place before all of the "Modern Sonic" games. Sonic 4 is a "Modern Sonic" game that depicts Metal Sonic's revival after his defeat in Sonic CD. So games like Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters would have to take place after Sonic 4, but they use the "Classic Sonic" designs. Sonic 4 also introduces a "Death Egg mk.II" that completely disregards Sonic the Fighters' "Death Egg II".

Sonic 3D and Sega Sonic can fit into the continuity just fine though. (Maybe the Saturn version of Sonic 3D, where the Flickies are less chatty.)

View Postbig smile, on 17 March 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

Quote

But Takashi Iizuka dismissed it because Sonic Team didn't work on it (he said as much in an interview, a Summer of Sonic if I recall correctly). So when Sonic Heroes came along it ignored Chaotix's story entirely and presented new versions of Vector, Espio and Charmy with different personality traits and ages, who had seemingly never met Eggman or Knuckles before.

I don't think he discussed Chaotix at summer of Sonic. He did mention he considered the Chaotix in Heroes to be new recreations in a EGM interview, but it's not explicitly clear if he doesn't consider Chaotix part of the story.

Although Iizuka has said himself that although they put connections between the games, they don't think about it too much, so a lot of the 'canon' and correct order is up to the individual fan.


I wish I could remember what interview it was. It might have been a Sonic Boom event. It was definitely a video interview.

But in Sonic Heroes itself the intention was clear that Team Chaotix had never met Eggman, Knuckles, Metal Sonic, Sonic or Tails before. It was a complete reboot for Vector, Espio and Charmy.

#38 User is offline DigitalDuck 

Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:50 PM

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View PostPengi, on 24 March 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

Sonic 4 and Generations throw a bit of a wrench in the works though. If we take Generations at face value then Sonic, Tails and Eggman all used to have their classic looks and at some point grew into their Adventure era looks. Going by that logic, all of the "Classic Sonic" games would have to take place before all of the "Modern Sonic" games. Sonic 4 is a "Modern Sonic" game that depicts Metal Sonic's revival after his defeat in Sonic CD. So games like Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters would have to take place after Sonic 4, but they use the "Classic Sonic" designs. Sonic 4 also introduces a "Death Egg mk.II" that completely disregards Sonic the Fighters' "Death Egg II".


Classic Sonic looks different to Modern Sonic in Generations so the player can easily identify which is which. It's implied that he looks exactly the same to other characters in the game, and as such hasn't changed looks-wise in-universe.

#39 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 25 March 2017 - 09:48 AM

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View PostDigitalDuck, on 24 March 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

View PostPengi, on 24 March 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

Sonic 4 and Generations throw a bit of a wrench in the works though. If we take Generations at face value then Sonic, Tails and Eggman all used to have their classic looks and at some point grew into their Adventure era looks. Going by that logic, all of the "Classic Sonic" games would have to take place before all of the "Modern Sonic" games. Sonic 4 is a "Modern Sonic" game that depicts Metal Sonic's revival after his defeat in Sonic CD. So games like Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters would have to take place after Sonic 4, but they use the "Classic Sonic" designs. Sonic 4 also introduces a "Death Egg mk.II" that completely disregards Sonic the Fighters' "Death Egg II".


Classic Sonic looks different to Modern Sonic in Generations so the player can easily identify which is which. It's implied that he looks exactly the same to other characters in the game, and as such hasn't changed looks-wise in-universe.


There are a few gags about Classic Sonic's appearance when he rescues his friends.

That being said, when Sonic Adventure flashed back to Sonic CD they used the new designs for Sonic and Amy. So it's not been very consistent and there's always a chance Sonic Team might change the rules again.

#40 User is offline big smile 

Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:05 AM

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Quote

Sonic 4 and Generations throw a bit of a wrench in the works though. If we take Generations at face value then Sonic, Tails and Eggman all used to have their classic looks and at some point grew into their Adventure era looks. Going by that logic, all of the "Classic Sonic" games would have to take place before all of the "Modern Sonic" games. Sonic 4 is a "Modern Sonic" game that depicts Metal Sonic's revival after his defeat in Sonic CD. So games like Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters would have to take place after Sonic 4, but they use the "Classic Sonic" designs. Sonic 4 also introduces a "Death Egg mk.II" that completely disregards Sonic the Fighters' "Death Egg II".


There was a Nintendo Power Magazine interview where Iizuka said they only used the modern design for branding reasons so it ties in with the other games that were on sale at the time. Plus Stealth mentioned that Sonic 4 was originally supposed to be a regular mobile game that was adapted by SOA into Sonic 4 midway during development. I am sure if things had been planned out better, they probably would have used the classic Sonic design.

Design issues aside, Sonic 4 fits in quite well. The Death Egg MkII remains intact, which sets up things for Fighters. Then Metal Sonic hits a wall in Sonic 4 and presumably dies as in Sonic CD, which sets up things for his revival in Chaotix.
Also the Death Egg later appears in Sonic Battle and the 24th Birthday episode of Sonic Runners (where it seems there are multiple Death Eggs that kidnap Sonic's friends), so it's not too much of a stretch for Eggman to have multiple Death Egg IIs.

Quote

I wish I could remember what interview it was. It might have been a Sonic Boom event. It was definitely a video interview.

But in Sonic Heroes itself the intention was clear that Team Chaotix had never met Eggman, Knuckles, Metal Sonic, Sonic or Tails before. It was a complete reboot for Vector, Espio and Charmy.

I don't think Iizuka talked about Chaotix in any of the Boom videos, but I could be wrong. In Heroes, Espio introduces Eggman to Charmy (which is interesting because in the 32X game only Espio is shown interacting with Eggman). The problem with Heroes is that the story is very threadbare. It also doesn't help that Team Sonic and Team Chaotix never interact (aside from the last episode when everyone is together). So it's hard to draw any conclusions. I think the Chaotix were just soft-rebooted (E.g. they are reintroduced and it's up to the player to decide if they are same characters).

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This post has been edited by big smile: 25 March 2017 - 11:06 AM

#41 User is offline Chaos Rush 

Posted 29 March 2017 - 08:43 PM

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As far as I'm concerned, these are the only Sonic games that exist, and thus this is the Sonic the Hedgehog timeline:

* Sonic the Hedgehog
* Sonic CD
* Sonic the Hedgehog 2
* Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
* Sonic Mania

Adventure? 2006? Unleashed? Lost World? Never heard of them.

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