I can't say I've been following this thread too much, but hey, step it back a little. No need to beat yourself up about it. You started a discussion and people discussed. Discussions don't always go as planned. And always keep in mind that a challenge or counterpoint to, or disagreement with your opinion does not constitute an attack on you. Relax, man. No need for drama.
It's actually nothing like IGN's complete joke of a Sonic video, nor is it exactly like Previously Recorded's "Sonic, The Most Overrated Game Ever?" video either. As far as I can tell, The Negative Ion never stated that he thinks "Sonic was never good" in the flawed, blanket statement way that some members of IGN tried to state. While I find myself disagreeing with many of The Negative Ion's points in the video, for the most part however (Some remarks and exaggerated video edits aside.), he comes across as sincere in his critiques and difficulties when trying to get into playing Sonic games as an adult. I think that his lack-of-visibility/inability-to-react-in-time complaint actually has some validity to it, but I also feel like there may be a 'personality clash' going on here; some game genres, and specific gameplay styles, are just never going to gel with certain people, and that's totally fine. I think that some people are 'inherently' more attracted towards Sonic games and their demand for fast reaction times, have the ability to usually react in time, and have no/lesser issues with memorising certain gameplay patterns and some level design sections. For others, Sonic games may never click with them, which is fair; no single game can ever appeal to everyone with 100% satisfaction, which is a key reason why diversity in game genres is so important. For the most part, I love replaying Sonic 3 & Knuckles myself, yet first person shooters just fail to appeal to me. First person shooters don't click with my interests, but that's okay, and there will probably be at least a minority of people who find those types of games more appealing than me. For everyone who has any interest in video games, generally speaking, I'd argue that there's likely to be at least 1 specific game or 1 game genre out there that can appeal to them, even if not a perfect fit. In fact, no game is ever immaculate; there is always room for some improvement, or a different way to execute an idea. At the same time though, it can be useful to reflect on yourself sometimes, and you may come to the conclusion of "Perhaps, this type of game/this specific game, just isn't for me.", or something to a similar effect. At the end of the day, there's only so far anyone is willing to adjust their opinions. How far that may be is unique from person to person, absolutely, but at the same time, I think it's safe to say that we all have our own 'hard coded' preferences. Is there typically significant wiggle room for persuasion and/or absorbing of different perspectives? Definitely! However, we cannot choose the brain that we were born with, and our mental adjustments are finite.
Just now catching up. So the "type" I was referring to was that in the years leading up to Sonic Mania, and after the piss poor ass backwards atrocity of Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, there just seemed to be a significant number of people coming out of the woodwork to declare "Sonic was never good." The support for this seem to grow and grow until Mania came out with its high reviews across the board. Then those in the "Sonic was never good" camp started to fall off again. You're probably the first to begin this cycle anew that I've seen in the past year or so.
I'm kind of disappointed Negative Ion just stormed off like that because I really liked his video and wanted to discuss it with him :/
I didn't watch the video because honestly there's enough negativity on YouTube, and I have better things to do with my time than look at the reasons why someone doesn't like something. It appears the lad put effort and thought into this, but I would argue it's misplaced. I'd much rather hear about something someone is actually passionate about, life is too short and there's enough misery going on in the world to waste energy on something that is purely negative - whether that's just shitting on something for the sake of it or something more akin to an "acedemic" arguement, as is supposedly evident here. Don't get me wrong - I get it - "internet criticism" being negative has been in-vogue since AVGN came around, and THE WORST [X] EVER videos on YouTube get far higher views on average than the equivalent BEST [X] EVER. People like schadenfreude, but I've been hearing "Sonic is bad, actually" arguments since before Sonic was actually bad, so I've heard it all already. If the argument is "Well it just isn't for me", then - no offence intended, why should I care about some random person on the internet telling me that something isn't for them? Football isn't for me, so I stay out of the World Cup threads. I've played 5 different Assassins Creed games for an hour before giving up, and have ultimately decided the series isn't for me, but I wouldn't join an Assassins Creed message board just to say "Hello here is my TED talk on why your hobby is bad." I think "Why are you here?" is a reasonable question. Ultimately, OP liked Sonic games as a kid because he liked flashy games with cartoon characters in them, rather than being particularly drawn to the gameplay loop itself, and has subsequently grown up to find that no longer has the same appeal. That's fine mate, really. I happen to really enjoy the basic movement in "classic" Sonic games, to me there's nothing else quite like rolling through a loop and then jumping off a ramp to gain massive height, taking you up to another path. Here's to positive ions EDIT: I must add, has anyone who throws out the "can't react in time" argument ever actually played a Mario game? The classic Mario games will just kill you dead because of a mistake that you only made because you hadn't memorised the level, at least Sonic has the rings system, and ample checkpoints - plus the fact that whenever you jump or roll you are effectively invunerable to most enemies, which allows for even the greatest of idiots to barrel through the levels without actually dying, or if they do, not being sent back that far. I personally find that Sonic 2 (Metropolis Zone, specifically), is the real offender for just throwing shit at you just to be a dick about it, but that's why it's my least favourite out of the classic 5.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one & they're usually full of shit. Hit pieces come and go but sales are eternal. You can argue the metaphysical merits (or lack thereof) of a given piece of fiction but it means little to continuation of said fiction (or in more realistic terms, it's maker). Again, I direct you to the Third Rate Gamer.
I've always love the 2D games, and (only to a lesser extent more recently) the DreamCast era titles. The 7th Generation of gaming consoles is where I nearly completely lost interest in Sonic (including the handheld games, though they were alright) and since then only the odd game has really caught my attention. I really did want to love Sonic through 2005 - 2012 but I just couldn't, despite me buying most of the games in that time. I've never changed my mind about the older MegaDrive titles and Sonic mania reinforced to me that those games were absolutely fantastic and a reason why they are held in such high regard.
I do feel bad for Negative Ion, as I don't think his video was meaning to be anything trite, or even something that doesn't deserve to exist in a greater discussion. I do think though, that in any situation you have to know your audience. This is a place where, obviously, people that like Sonic games in some capacity come to talk about them. The things about the games that are liked or disliked are continually in debate but at some level it stems from a place of optimism. Even when being negative about certain aspects, the end goal in mind is usually "Sonic would be better if: ". Looking for a solution VS. detailing a failure. It seems subtle but it's the difference between optimism and cynicism. The former begs discussion, the latter begs an argument. Don't know if you're still around Ion, but I would recommend in the future if your goal is to start a discussion to frame it in such a way. If you don't like Sonic games, instead frame your thesis as what you would like to see. Some may consider it semantics, but again, discussion best stems from a point of invitation. So if your goal is really to look for discussion and not merely give a lecture, try to keep that in focus when opening a topic. If the thesis is just that Sonic is a lost cause then yes, maybe not the best venue but you're in luck because there are plenty of those arounddd loollllll
Being the kid that was picked on in school for liking Sonic (Elementary and Middle) and consequently another totally different franchise (when I was a teen in middle and high school) as well, I usually don't talk about things I like that much anymore. I didn't bother to watch the original poster's video as I felt no point in doing so. Everybody is different and if you don't like something that's okay as long as it doesn't turn into what I had to go through. For the record I still really like Sonic.
Eyyyyy :v: Nothing I can add that hasn't already been said. I think people have that phase, especially on the Internet where they graduate from "I don't like this THEREFORE IT SUCKS AND YOU SUCK FOR LIKING IT" to "I don't like this, therefore it's not for me, regardless of it's value to others." I love a lot of things I know are actually a bit crap, and I can't get into other things which I know are critically acclaimed and well liked. That's just... people and life, innit. I know this is a vague blanket response to general opinions but I guess it's a good time as any to throw it out here. This thread has been a good read overall.
Don't worry, @Sir_mihael, you're not alone on that mindset. I speak from experience...unfortunately...
Hence the reason the Sonic fanbase is so completely fractured, increasingly so for every "re-imagining" of Sonic that the Sonic Team brings out. There will always be fans of one style of Sonic game (well.. I suppose except for Sonic 06 and Boom, those were just epic failures), and so ST tries to put all their fingers into all the pies - and just makes a mess in the end. I think Negative Ions' expectation of this community was rather misunderstood (or rather, misplaced) by the sounds of it. Ether that, or he was treating us like a YouTube channel, thinking we are here to watch whatever he throws at us.
No, even Boom and 06 have their fans. I like Sonic 2006 myself and I've seen people praising Sonic Boom on Twitter.
It's understandable if you, or anyone else, chooses not to watch a video with a primarily negative vibe/tone. After all, life can be stressful, and positive videos can be a great distraction to help keep us happy, especially after a hectic day at work for example. Beyond that, it's also every individual's choice what they do and do not watch, and barring some extreme exceptions, nobody should ever feel downright mandated to watch anything. However, (And feel free to correct me if I am misinterpreting your statement here.) passion does not come purely in the form of positive content. I am passionate about the Sonic series, and that includes my very firm opinions and critique on some of the Sonic games that I dislike the most, which will inevitably include negativity. Does this mean that I am not "actually passionate" about the Sonic series? Absolutely not. Passion should not be inherently positive, and in fact if it always was, I'd heavily argue that passion would be far less fruitful. For example, if you're passionate about working on a project, and passion is your main driving force, but you mandate that the main passion aspect must be entirely positive, then I'd argue that your project is significantly more likely to be hindered in its quality. By isolating yourself into a 100% positive vacuum, the failure to learn from past mistakes - yours or otherwise - is notably more likely to occur, since analysis of previous errors will inevitably detract from pure positivity. Things that you are less fond of will undoubtedly bring up some level of negativity, but it's probably worth it in order to, in this example, not repeat errors in future, and in turn, could lead to better long term positivity via the better execution of your project. To each their own, but I find that sometimes it can be useful to listen to opposing perspectives, even if those perspectives are strikingly different to your own. Humans, like all animals, are imperfect, and personal bias in favour of something (In this case, Sonic.) has the potential to cloud - even if only minimally - your judgement of certain elements. Outside perspectives which are not ingrained with positive vibes and happy experiences, have the potential to analyse some things better and critique aspects with less margin for 'excuse', for lack of a better term. Full admittance that this may come off as a huge false equivalency, but I find this somewhat similar to a sour relationship, which started off good but slowly got worse over time. Video games and relationships are very different things of course, but I think that there are some shared general principles at hand here. People who stick together in a bad relationship, constantly trying to work things out but also simultaneously arguing frequently, can sometimes fail to see the bigger picture and get out of such a toxic scenario. They've become so ingrained as a couple that one or both of them completely miss the specifics of what is truly going wrong, all the while outside people looking in are saying "End the relationship now, living separately is the only long term solution!" etcetera. Again, a completely different (And really serious.) scenario compared to critiquing a video game, however my point stands as this: when you're so deeply involved in something, whether it be serious or minor, it can be people external to that deep involvement that can sometimes make you think along the lines of "Hmm, what if they have a point to be made here, that I haven't considered?". Even if their input turns out to not benefit you, (Whatever the scenario may be.) being at least slightly absorbent to some perspectives outside of 'the zone' you're in/your community/etcetera, I think is a healthy mindset. I'm not saying that you (Or anyone else for that matter.) has a bad mindset, far from it. I'm simply pointing out that some outside perspectives can have the potential to be useful, (Even if not helpful to some in the long run.) and as such, the notion of disregarding anything and everything of the sort as definitely valueless strikes me as a tad too strict and somewhat stubborn. To clarify, I'm not implying that anyone has stated outright something such as "disregarding anything and everything of the sort as definitely valueless", I'm just voicing my concerns regarding what I see as potential over-negativity towards 'opposing views'.
...I'll admit, I'd stick up for Rise of Lyric as a simple generic beat'em up. Aside from the game being completely broken and buggy, it reminded me of the Crash Bandicoot Titan games. Not gold by any stretch of the imagination but perfectly salvageable as a simple multiplayer game (which was the initial pitch from my understanding). Though much like the Crash Bandicoot Titan games, Rise of Lyric is no substitute for the core Sonic gameplay we know and love. As a spinoff, it is perfectly fine.
So lets lay it all out as to how I feel about every Sonic game. I cannot say "I don't like Sonic games" because that's too blanket a statement: Off the top of my head Sonic 1, 2 and 3 (the old platformers) - Fun to play with, sometimes the graphics is very much on my nerves, but that depends on how tired I am) Sonic R - Its OK Sonic Jam - This game to me felt like it was a re-hash of old stuff and it really didn't appeal to me Sonic Adventure- Love it, enough said Sonic Adventure 2- Love it, enough said Sonic Shuffle- I was like... WTF when I got this game... Played it twice then sold it I think.. can't remember Sonic Heroes- Aside from the confusing controls I had to get used to, it was pretty fun. I like this game Sonic Unleashed - OMG NO... absolute garbage. Sold the game disk together with the XBOX 360. Played it for just under 67 minutes and decided NO FREAKING WAYS!.. A WEREHOG. WTF were you thinking Mr Lizuka!!! Sonic '06 - Totally avoided due to the bad reviews and alleged beastiality. I pretend it doesn't exist Sonic Boom- Bought it, played it once or twice, thought it was rubbish and sold it. Yuck! Junk aimed at 5 year olds and below. Sonic Mania- Pretty good, seems SEGA is catching a wake up FINALLY. I play this whenever I am not playing Adventure Sonic Lost World- Its a pretty slow Sonic game I mean that first level feels like Sonic has got lead in his shoes, but my kid enjoys it and it seems to get fun when Zavok and Zazz come along. Also that Lost Hex thing... erm... kind of totally out of context of the Sonic Universe Sonic Racing games (Sonic Riders and Sonic Free Riders) - they're racing games which I am not really into.. the soundtracks seemed cool and the new characters did too Sonic Generations- I really like this game, including its infuriatingly difficult bosses. Seems they were trying to pass this off as a Sonic Adventure 3. But it does fall short, I am not happy with the difficulty of boss fights compared to Adventure. Sonic Forces- Now I had high hopes for this, from the outset it seemed to be good but I am afraid its a conversion of Sonic Generations plus too many characters into an attempt at appeasing Sonic Adventure fans.
Ah yes, those Wii titles I forgot about. Sonic Colors- IDK, its first few levels are somewhat OK but after that its just... BORING. After having played Generations it feels much the same, like Sonic Team is just re-hashing some formula. Sonic and the Black Night- Didn't think that was fitting of Sonic, I played it once or twice and it just didn't suit me. How on earth do you change someone who spins, collect rings and stuff, to now wield a sword... Erm nope! The Wii games went when I sold the Wii to make space for a XBOX360
For the record, I have never played a Sonic game outside of 1, 2, 2 Game Gear, CD, Spinball, 3+K, and Mania. And fuck if I didn't enjoy Spinball just a little bit. Sonic 2 Game Gear can go to hell, though.
