don't click here

Is there a 'Sonic Maker' or equivalent?

Discussion in 'Fangaming Discussion' started by 1337rooster, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Rosie

    Rosie

    aka Rosie Member
    While I wouldn't really want a fully fledged 'Sonic Maker', it would be quite a cool addition to have a smaller in scope and scale level editor if they ever make a 2.5D game with decent physics. Have the option to choose between a handful of set tiles or draw your own bumps and curves, and then use the level themes, gimmicks and enemies from the full game. They could even have a cute throwback to the original titles, and have you place things down in a similar manner to the old debug mode.

    So essentially, more like Smash Bros level editor than Mario Maker's. It would certainly be a lot more fun than the usual stuff Sonic Team puts in to pad out the play time. That sort of thing could be quite popular with the YouTube crowd, and if it was - plenty of potential to whack in some DLC for more level themes (psst, SEGA, if you want to sell an Ice Cap theme just use the music from Sonic Adventure).
     
  2. The Danimal

    The Danimal

    Member
    7
    0
    0
    Why would SEGA make a Sonic Maker? That's just copying Nintendo's idea and, after all, SEGA do what Nintendon't, right?

    Besides, Sonic levels are just too complex for a standard level creator. They tend to span hundreds of screens since Sonic goes so fast and contain a variety of branching paths and a variety of unique gimmicks in every game, so making a level on a console would take days. Plus, you would often come across levels made by mediocre creators who wouldn't take the creator too seriously and their levels would end up as short, unfinished garbage. Which also applies to Mario Maker too, but, like I said, Sonic levels are much more complex.
     
  3. rata

    rata

    Member
    689
    72
    28
    Argentina
    Trying to be useful somehow.
    Holy grave digging, Batman!
     
  4. Rudie Radio Waves

    Rudie Radio Waves

    Member
    296
    41
    28
    Italy
    Many a game.
    Yeah, I agree. The general consensus is that you shouldn't bump very old topics, unless for a very good reason.
     
  5. Lapper

    Lapper

    Lappering Tech Member
    1,763
    951
    93
    England
    Sonic Studio, Sonic Physics Guide, Kyle & Lucy, Freedom Planet 2
    What a bump. Well to make this topic worth reading again, Here's an old video from a Sonic Maker I was.. making... way back which never saw a release:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6l4j-w3j7Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQKoGiMzVGM
     
  6. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    19,218
    965
    93
    Long-term happiness
    Dear christ, Danimal. Don't bump ancient topics for no reason.
     
  7. MartiusR

    MartiusR

    Member
    Sorry for little offtop - while I generally understand, why bumping old threads is not seen too well, what alternative there is if some discussion was developed in the past, someone simply couldn't take part in it (created account recently, didn't notice it earlier due to the fact that it was "digged" etc) and yet it's an interesting topic for him and he would like to share his opinion/thoughts about it? (no matter if his opinion/thoughts are especially innovative/original or not).

    Creating another topic? TBH, it seems like even worser solution than bumping old threads.
     
  8. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    4,505
    201
    43
    Er, that is the very heart of the matter. If his input is merely to voice an opinion of "yeah! I agree!" Then that is a terrible reason to bump an ancient thread. A novel opinion that advances the topic? Sure. But a redundant one without much meat? Common sense says keep that to yourself.
     
  9. Covarr

    Covarr

    Sentient Cash Register Member
    4,233
    3
    18
    Trapped in my own thoughts.
    Two stageplays, a screenplay, and an album
    Since we're bumped anyway, and since Lapper's contribution actually added something...

    I've gotta say, this really, really does a better job than words ever could at explaining why has not and should not attempt to copy Super Mario Maker. The need to build from large chunks is both not intuitive enough for the average player, and not powerful enough to really be satisfying. Like, seriously, I would find a tool like this to be a right pain in the ass to use, and yet... I'm not sure I could come up with something better, short of a full-fledged game making tool à la Game Maker or Unity. Not unless you wanted to seriously hinder the scope of potential levels. And even that would be difficult to do in an acceptable manner, if Super Mario Maker's continuing lack of slopes is anything to go by.

    I think this is a subject that's inevitably going to keep coming up time and time again, whether as bumps or new threads. It just seems really, really obvious, if you don't think too much about the logistics. But it's just so utterly unimplementable. I'm really glad that you tried, Lapper, if only to give a concrete example of why this isn't really a great idea. At best, it could be useful for serious enthusiasts, but certainly nothing on the same level of ease as SMM.
     
  10. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

    bobs over baghdad Member
    5,191
    234
    43
    Winnipeg, MB
    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    I think if a Sonic Maker were made for a modern platform, without tiling constraints, it might go over a little better. Something more freeform like LBP or Smash 4's level creator. Messy? Maybe. Fun? Probably.
     
  11. Lilly

    Lilly

    Member
    2,419
    234
    43
    United States
    Shang Mu Architect
    LittleBigPlanet did slopes really well in a 2.5D environment. You could carve, shave, or add to terrain as you pleased like a piece of clay; couldn't be more intuitive.

    Strife is using an extension for Unity that allows warping/manipulating 2D assets in a somewhat similar fashion, to create more unique slopes in Freedom Planet 2. Would the same concept be as easy for a fully 2D Sonic Maker to implement? Because that would be far easier for the average person than working with literally dozens of slope pieces at a time.
     
  12. Covarr

    Covarr

    Sentient Cash Register Member
    4,233
    3
    18
    Trapped in my own thoughts.
    Two stageplays, a screenplay, and an album
    It's dirt easy, as is drawing shapes for arbitrary terrain in SSB4. The problem is, it does tend to be uneven and rocky in a way that would wreak serious havoc on Sonic's physics. A few misplaced pixels of terrain that weren't leveled neatly, even if barely visible, could cause a spindash in that area to send Sonic flying. It works for LBP's slower, methodical, floatier gameplay, but I don't think it would be reliable enough to use for this sort of gameplay without some sort of automatic cleanup, which could be infuriating in its own way.
     
  13. The Danimal

    The Danimal

    Member
    7
    0
    0
    Wow, looks like there's quite a bit of disscussion over this old topic. And all because I didn't read the date of when it was created.
     
  14. Lilly

    Lilly

    Member
    2,419
    234
    43
    United States
    Shang Mu Architect
    I sort of experienced that firsthand in LittleBigPlanet. My attempts to make a rocket sledding level were dashed, either because the sled pieces would get crushed on terrain when it wasn't rotating along the slope fast enough, (Should've given my cousin a few bucks for the DLCs with unbreakable pieces.) or I did make a slope the sled liked, except for one little mistake, and it'd go flying wildly. It needed too much experimentation to make it work, so I gave up on that and moved onto a Dark Souls-alike map with a floating "HUD buddy". Fun times. :specialed:

    That's why I suggested Freedom Planet 2's approach. The way it works seems to be if there is a previously unseen rough patch in a slope, characters still walk or run over it without any problems.
     
  15. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

    Member
    220
    10
    18
    Somewhere in Africa
    Sonic: Time Attacked - MAX
    Another problem with a "Sonic Maker" is a certain expectation of uniqueness. It would be very easy to have, let's say a "Greenhill Maker" which is tailored for making levels with the Greenhill assets, but when someone wants to make whole new zone they'll want fitting badniks and gimmicks that are so baked into the level's tropes that a brand new zone would be fundamentally limited by what is already provided... Unless they add in scripting and then, well, why not just make a fangame?

    Though considering the amount of Greenhills we as a fangaming and ROM-hacking community put out, I'd honestly be happy paying cash for a Taxman & Stealth Retro engine Greenhill Zone Maker. :P
     
  16. To be completely honest, I don't really see why this wouldn't work very well. I mean, it would be a touch more complicated than Mario Maker, but not by too much.

    Use something like Lapper's video as a starting point. Place individual chunks in a level to make the general shape. As far as the directions go, just tell users that because of Sonic's speed, the levels should be expected to be much longer as a result, and it makes more sense to build it using larger pieces than assembling things one tile at a time.

    Step 2 would be to go over it again with a smaller chunk grid. Something about the size of a quarter-loop. The idea is, you can overlap these pieces over the level you built to get more precise designs, or more complex structures. Assemble a loop through four quarter tiles. Loop sections don't necessarily need to be attached to each other, you can have the original level framework have a tall vertical wall, then tuck a quarter loop into that corner so players can run up it. The most complex thing you would need to explain to the player here would be a sort of "override" platform, when you have something like a vertical wall that loops around and you run through it. (A loop where you enter vertically and exit horizontally) The way that would work to be as simple as possible is that you place the platform that Sonic runs through, then you're immediately given the path-switching node that you place on the loop that led to it.

    Step 3, which could also be done as part of step 2 would be placing things like Checkpoints, Badniks, crumbling platforms, and Rings. Pretty self-explanitory there. If you want to get really complex, you can have extra graphics for the user to patch up where the auto-tiling doesn't perfectly line up, just like how Lunar Magic lets you either place whole slopes or individual 16x16 tiles. The only difference is that these graphics don't have any collision or anything, they're just graphics of various sizes that can be placed overtop existing graphics like drawing on a new layer in Paint.NET.

    The final step, which may or may not be necessary depending on how Steps 1 and 2 were designed would be how Lapper drew the solidity over the tiles. Just a bunch of different-shaped slopes that piece together to form the level geometry. Hell, have a quick-dev feature where you get a generic wire-frame tileset like Worlds has, and you just have to draw the solidity, so people can come up with really complex designs and see exactly how they work in-game. Have a copy/paste feature so you can build a structure and place it in the full editor, then draw over it with the normal graphics using the solidity as a placement guide.

    As far as graphics go, do it like RPG Maker or something. Each tileset has a set of graphics that, as long as you draw it in the proper shape, can be loaded as a custom tileset. Beginning artists can just draw the graphics for the ground as they want. Artists who want something more complex can go the whole nine yards and do something similar to the normal maps in Minecraft tilesets. A second identical version of each graphic done in two colors, such as red/blue, where one color is for what's drawn behind Sonic and the other color is drawn in front of Sonic. Stick it all in a ZIP file and put it in a "tilesets" folder and you can easily swap graphics.

    Yes, it's more complex than Mario Maker. It's still completely understandable when done step-by-step. Every step is something proven to be grasped by a typical user, as it was either taken from or inspired by an existing layman's tool. (RPG Maker, Minecraft tilesets, Lunar Magic, SonED)
     
  17. MartiusR

    MartiusR

    Member
    I agree with you Kharen.

    It's not that in other level editors (or "makers") you can't do something which is unplayable. And they're requires some "know how" (more or less), internet is flooded with additional scenarios to Warcraft III, Jazz Jackrabbit 2, or games made in RPG Maker and other "game makers"), but only part of them is actually "playable", and part of those which are playable, is actually really good (or at least "decent"). It's nothing terrible.

    Not to mention that it's only platform game, physics or not, it's not that complicated to make it impossible to deal with by common user. Anyway - plenty of levels in original Sonic 1/2/3 wasn't using especially this glorified "physics" (which seems to have status of demi-god on this forum :)/>) and they were fun, working (more or less) fine.

    So yeah, I'm totally for this idea. What is more - I think that such tools are great opportunity for total beginners, due to the fact that such applications are allowing to focus on less "painful" work than coding/hacking/etc, but on purely "creative" part, such as composition, graphics (if it's allowing to use your own assets, like many editors/makers) etc. And at the same time - some sort of "test", because if you're not able to make good and playable level in such "maker"(assuming that this tool is working properly), then creating your own rom-hack/fan-game/etc is rather too big challenge. I know that we're used to complain a lot for many aspects of video games market (it's fully justified in most cases), but bloom of "makers", which are easier to use than previously, is for me a good aspect of "modern" video games world.