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Brad Buxer and the S3 Mid Boss Theme One step closer to the truth, or?

#61 User is offline E102 

Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:55 PM

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----I. Scirocco----
Regarding C. Cirocco Jones (aka Scirocco)

Artist: Michael Jackson
Sonic Cues – (levels 2 & 3)
Company: MJJ / Pebbles Music / Sega Corporation
Project: Sonic The Hedgehog – Game theme music cues
Role: Programmer, Additional Production by Cirocco and Arranger-Composer (with Brad Buxer)

1. He was hired by MJ. The line on top says who he worked for, not who he worked with.
2. He is specifically credited for arrangement and composition with Brad Buxer. It should be noted that:
-- a) The order of the two roles doesn't change, so he didn't necessarily arrange more than compose (although he has more arrangement roles than composition on this list)
-- b) He specifically made "Game theme music cues", which challenges his involvement in handling a Zone theme.
-- c) Buxer clearly has a primary involvement, as every MJ-related track revealed with specific information thus far has him in it.
3. As sonicthesnot said, he specifically credits "levels 2 & 3," not "Hydrocity Zone" and "Marble Garden Zone." I, however, believe that is what he meant.
4. Again, as sonicthesnot said, there is also the chance that these were replaced. Considering that Cirocco worked with Buxer and, more importantly, under MJ (or rather, as part of MJ's involvement with Sonic 3), that's more likely than not the case despite not being as common a colleague for MJ as the other five team members. By being involved with MJ, his contributions had to have been in the same collective pot, right? If S&KC left HC and MG as they were, then doesn't that mean Cirocco nor Buxer had nothing to do with the final version?

----II. Hydrocity----
So then, who did HC? Well LOst, here's my best guess:
Sachio Ogawa, thanks to his work on The Hybrid Front.

Compare Other Forces Turn (Part 2 - Normal) to Hydrocity Act 1, and Other Forces Turn (Part 2 - Variation 1) to Hydrocity Act 2. They really do sound like each other at times.

I know I compared these to Give in to Me and Blood on the Dancefloor in the past, but hey, I was going for a complete package regardless of source, and these simply weren't replaced in S&KC.

I'd also like to note that for Act 2 Arrangements, it seems the original composer (Act 1) did both. It just seems easier, you know? Setsumaru appears to be limited to the misc. themes (like Senoue is), but mainly those composed by Drossin.

----III. Marble Garden----
As for Marble Garden, I stick with crediting one person to the S3 half (that's non-MJ) and one for the S&K half in accordance with their consistency (especially for S&K). Through process of elimination and some comparative work I've designated those to Masayuki Nagao and Tomonori Sawada, respectively.

Nagao comes from a) his use of the Boss theme in Sonic Drift 2, and b) his "lack of credit" in the 10th Anniversary CD. You see, Nagao left Sega before the CD was released, therefore they would exclude him from crediting (just as Maki Morrow wasn't credited when his Sonic the Fighters music was used in SGC and S&S All-Stars Racing). Because of this, there are at most two tracks that could be his, and if Sawada and Kashima confirm what's theirs from the three that remain and there's still uncredited tracks, they can only be his. I don't include Tokuhiko Uwabo (who also left before the CD) because, as I had always suspected, he composed nothing. All he did was arrange/coordinate the sound team. (Thank you Dissident93 for that break in the case).

Sawada's credit in Mario & Sonic atOWG (Wii) doesn't help, since the credit refers to this rearrangement (Senoue and Hataya also rearranged old themes for that version). Despite this, Sky Sanctuary is the most likely of the three remaining tracks on the CD to be composed by him based on his style.

----IV. Senoue and 1-Up----
Senoue doing S3's 1-Up has weaned from me recently. While he used it in Sonic 4, he did not use it for Generations. This is surely because Classic/numbered games are assigned to use the Classic/numbered jingle while Adventure and Modern are assigned to use the Chaos Emerald jingle. Meanwhile, the Game Over music (from the latest demo) is the same for Generations because no Adventure or Modern game had one, and the New Record jingle from Sonic Unleashed was the first of its kind, so it went unchallenged for Sonic 4. It's a matter of the existence of pre-existing material, so Senoue being the composer of S3 1-Up or the New Record jingle is not as likely as first perceived. I see that now, and I apologize to any and all I've consequently misled.

Senoue, however, did do the last of the three bonus stages (Slot Machine) thanks to the second (and now only) unused track from Sonic 3D (for a Bonus Stage that never was). You want 0:11-0:13. (Again, thank you Dissident)

Whoever said Senoue did all 3 was right on their mark.

----V. Soundtrack Shortcomings----
With regards to soundtrack releases for Sonic Generations, we are unfortunately left up the creek. The bonus CD soundtrack included with this special edition bundle is merely a combination of these two pre-order bonuses, and since they're in chronological, primary to secondary order by section (I.e. Numbered series/Classic, Rush, Adventure, Storybook, Modern), Sega Call is track 1, Angel Island Zone is track 2, and Mushroom Hill Zone is track 3, and all of them are credited to SEGA. Meanwhile, Splash Hill (track 4), Palmtree Panic (Present) (track 5) and Toxic Caves (track 6) are credited to Jun Senoue, Naofumi Hataya and Howard Drossin, respectively. Not even Midnight Greenhouse (aka Botanic Base) (track 8) is given any credit, as there is a blank line under Jun Senoue for Green Grove Zone for 3D Blast/Flickies' Island (track 7).

Here's the image (you'll need to squint to see the text at full size)

Unless the non-promotional Japanese version includes the information there's nothing to gain from them.

Truly Sonic 3 & Knuckles is our ordeal and ours alone.
This post has been edited by E102: 29 October 2011 - 10:29 AM

#62 User is offline LOst 

Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:06 PM

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View PostE102, on 28 October 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

----V. Soundtrack Shortcomings----
With regards to soundtrack releases for Sonic Generations, we are unfortunately left up the creek. The bonus CD soundtrack included with this special edition bundle is merely a combination of these two pre-order bonuses, and since they're in chronological, primary to secondary order by section (I.e. Numbered series/Classic, Rush, Adventure, Storybook, Modern), Sega Call is track 1, Angel Island Zone is track 2, and Mushroom Hill Zone is track 3, and all of them are credited to SEGA. Meanwhile, Splash Hill (track 4), Palmtree Panic (Present) (track 5) and Toxic Caves (track 6) are credited to Jun Senoue, Naofumi Hataya and Howard Drossin, respectively. Not even Midnight Greenhouse (aka Botanic Base) (track 8) is given any credit, as there is a blank line under Jun Senoue for Green Grove Zone for 3D Blast/Flickies' Island (track 7).

Here's the image (you'll need to squint to see the text at full size)

Damn, I can't read that. It is just pixels. Got any better? I want pure data to confirm this.

Naofumi Hataya has never been credited alone for his Sonic CD work. There has always been Naofumi Hataya and Masafumi Ogata. If Hataya got credited alone for Palmtree Panic Present, then that is big news for me!


So Sega doesn't know who created Angel Island and Mushroom Hill? Hmm, again I want pure data to confirm this, but if it is true, those tracks might have been done by one of those music composers, and not by Sega Sound Team.

#63 User is offline ThunderPX 

Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:56 PM

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Huh. That's pretty interesting, since I always suspected both of those tracks were by Jun Senoue. I guess I'll just shut up about trying to figure out who composed what. :v

#64 User is offline E102 

Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:10 AM

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View PostLOst, on 28 October 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

Damn, I can't read that. It is just pixels. Got any better? I want pure data to confirm this.


No better pictures until release day, I'm afraid. What I can do, however, is give you a makeshift tracklist with the exposed parts in bold and the implied parts in italics. Whatever cannot still be deciphered, be it completely unseen, unnatural, or confounding, will be shown in question marks. *[blank space]* speaks for itself.

1 ????????????????----------------------------------- ?????????? ----------------------------- SEGA
2 SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 3 -------------------------- Angel Island Zone - Act 1&2/??? ----- SEGA
3 SONIC & KNUCKLES -------------------------------- Mushroom Hill Zone - Act 1&2/??? -- SEGA
4 SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4 -------------------------- Splash Hill - Act 1 -------------------- Jun Senoue
5 SONIC THE HEDGEHOG CD ------------------------ Palmtree Panic Present - ??? -------- Naofumi Hataya
6 SONIC SPINBALL ------------------------------------ Toxic Caves -------------------------- Howard Drossin
7 SONIC 3D: FLICKIES' ISLAND --------------------- Green Grove Zone - Act 1 ---------- Jun Senoue
8 KNUCKLES' CHAOTIX ------------------------------- Midnight Greenhouse --------------- *[blank space]*
9 SONIC THE FIGHTERS/SONIC CHAMPIONSHIP -- Lovers -------------------------------- ??????????????????
10 SONIC R ------------------------------------------- *[blank space]* ------------------------- Richard Jacques
11 SONIC RUSH --------------------------------------- Leaf Storm Zone - Act 1 ------------ Hideki Naganuma
12 SONIC RUSH ADVENTURE ------------------------ Plant Kingdom - Act 1 --------------- Tomoya Ohtani
13 SONIC ADVENTURE ------------------------------- Azure Blue World -------------------- Jun Senoue
14 SONIC ADVENTURE 2 ----------------------------- Escape From The City --------------- Jun Senoue
15 SONIC HEROES ------------------------------------ Seaside Hill -------------------------- Jun Senoue
16 SONIC RIDERS ---------------------------------- *[blank space]* ------------------------- Tomonori Sawada
17 SONIC RIVALS ----------------------------------- Forest Falls Zone -------------------- Chris Rezanson
18 SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG ---------------------- Westopolis --------------------------- Jun Senoue
19 SONIC AND THE SECRET RINGS ------------- Let The Speed Mend It --------------- Kenichi Tokoi
20 SONIC AND THE BLACK KNIGHT ------------- Camelot Castle ----------------------- Jun Senoue
21 SONIC 2006 ------------------------------------ Wave Ocean -------------------------- ???????????????????
22 SONIC UNLEASHED ---------------------------- Windmill Isle - Day ------------------- Tomoya Ohtani
23 SONIC COLORS -------------------------------- Tropical Resort - Act 1 ----------------- Tomoya Ohtani

-I can't read the bits at the ends of Angel Island, Mushroom Hill or Palmtree Panic, but composer information is in the following column, so I'm not worried.
-The credited name for Lovers looks more like Takenobu than Maki, so I'm holding off on that. Pretty interesting, though.
-For Wave Ocean, who knows if either Ohtani or Nanba will be credited. Both together seems unlikely.

View PostLOst, on 28 October 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

Naofumi Hataya has never been credited alone for his Sonic CD work. There has always been Naofumi Hataya and Masafumi Ogata. If Hataya got credited alone for Palmtree Panic Present, then that is big news for me!


Aside from this track nearly being considered its cousin, it should be noted that a full soundtrack release (39 +1 bonus track) is coming, and the above release, if nothing else, confirms that we will get specific information on this one. November 23. Be ready.

View PostLOst, on 28 October 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

So Sega doesn't know who created Angel Island and Mushroom Hill? Hmm, again I want pure data to confirm this, but if it is true, those tracks might have been done by one of those music composers, and not by Sega Sound Team.


You're overthinking this. They just use SEGA as either...
a) a collective name for less-detailed soundtracks (NOTE: Miyauchi and Hashimoto aren't credited on the tray credits, despite what the notes at the bottom of the page say. The first line after "Original Music by SEGA" is "Producer..."), or

b) for whenever the actual person involved is truly unknown (compare Turbo OutRun (MD) to OutRunners (MD); neither was known before this release as they both lacked an in-game staff roll). To that extent, the 10th Anniversary CD can be considered a fluke, as it does have specific information. The data does exist... somewhere, somehow.


View PostThunderPX, on 28 October 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Huh. That's pretty interesting, since I always suspected both of those tracks were by Jun Senoue. I guess I'll just shut up about trying to figure out who composed what. :v


For 1-Up that's not quite true. Senoue still has a chance, I just can't say it's definite anymore. One fact that remains is that Title, Invincible and All Clear (aka the music based off of the main theme) were all changed for Sonic 4 while 1-Up remained the same. Making a 1-Up jingle off of the main theme should be a snap, so perhaps the 1-Up jingle is treated independently from the others. I've come to three theories:

1. The 1-Up jingle is (a) treated independently from Title, Invincible and All Clear, (b) was composed by Senoue, and (c ) was qualified to be reused in the next numbered series title AND was part of Senoue's personal worklist.
2. The 1-Up jingle is (a) treated independently from Title, Invincible and All Clear, (b) was not composed by Senoue, and (c ) was qualified to be reused in the next numbered series title.
3. The 1-Up jingle is (a) not treated independently from Title, Invincible and All Clear, (b) was composed by Senoue, and (c ) was qualified to be reused in the next numbered series title AND was part of Senoue's personal worklist.

A fourth option (not independent and not Senoue) wouldn't make sense because then it would have been replaced at the same time as the other three.

While I can no longer say it's Senoue's based solely on reuse, this distinction with the main theme variations remains as the only clue available to us. It's just not a given anymore that a Senoue-made track can and will be reused, as the same Chaos Emerald 1-Up jingle from Sonic 2006 is used instead of, say, a rearrangement of the Sonic Adventure 1 Chaos Emerald 1-Up jingle like his other SA1-made [and one Sonic 4-made] themes, nor is S3 1-Up returning for Generations.
----------------------

As for New Record, the Special Thanks credits for Sonic 4 point to three sound people: Naofumi Hataya (Music and Sound Special Thanks in Sonic Unleashed), Tatsuya Kouzaki (Supervisor Sound Editor in Sonic Unleashed), and Tadashi Kinukawa (not credited in Sonic Unleashed).

If it can't be Senoue, then Hataya's the next most likely, especially considering how it's being reused in Generations but wasn't in Colors.
This post has been edited by E102: 29 October 2011 - 10:11 AM

#65 User is offline ThunderPX 

Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:14 AM

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Actually, I was talking about Angel Island and Mushroom Hill. Both of them have certain qualities that remind me of Senoue's work in later games (although admittedly, I never cared much for the Sonic 3D soundtrack, so I haven't really taken it into consideration), plus there's the fact that he chose to remix Angel Island for Brawl instead of a more obvious track like Green Hill Zone.

#66 User is offline E102 

Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:01 PM

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I'd like to note that for Sonic Generations Wii:

For the "Target" Mode:
-Angel Island, Hydrocity and Marble Garden of Sonic 3 are arranged. This leaves Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base
-Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery and Death Egg are arranged. This leaves Sandopolis and Lava Reef.

For the "Mission" Mode:
-Mission 2 uses both Quick Race (composed by Senoue) from Sonic Heroes and Balloon Park, and the arrangement is clearly Senoue's.
-Mission 5 is just Balloon Park by itself.

Take these as you will, both for me it seems coupling Endless Mine with City Escape was Senoue's intention all along, and Balloon Park certainly resembles a certain track from Sonic Adventure.

As for Sandopolis, I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's the least memorable S3&K track, and between that and Lava Reef's exclusion, I'd say they just took the first levels of both games and then the last level of the collective whole as a "topping off."

The SK&C consistency is certainly maintained here. Saying that I will bring up that there has been one slight exception, but do realize that the publisher was SNK (and not Sega) and the song used is the only one they could use without getting into a MGS Main Theme-like fiasco (8 notes in a 2-second measure isn't quite enough). Also keep in account how offbeat the rest of the soundtrack is and also that they are repeat offenders for another license.
This post has been edited by E102: 01 November 2011 - 09:05 AM

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:41 PM

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Isn't City Escape Classic a Cash Cash track, though?

#68 User is offline E102 

Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:31 PM

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View PostThunderPX, on 30 October 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Isn't City Escape Classic a Cash Cash track, though?


They sang autotone for that (and now also Super Sonic Racing), and I remember it being said from Senoue's Twitter that Cash Cash arranged it, which fits since it has their sound and also because of how vocal tracks like that were managed for Sonic Heroes (for This Machine and Team Chaotix). With the existence of the "Mission 2" track, however, at least now we know that combining Endless Mine and City Escape together couldn't have been solely Cash Cash's idea since a clearly Senoue-done track, guitar and all (where one of two themes is once again a Senoue definite) is done without Cash Cash and their vocals, and even goes from one right into the other this time. Another instance of Senoue combining two compositions is for Super Sonic (Live & Learn and Sonic 4's Invincible). This one's 100% his, so keep that in mind.

A bigger mystery to me is whether the Classic versions of Speed Highway and Seaside Hill are still done by Senoue. I'll wait for the in-game staff roll for that and everything else, since I'm expecting quite a few more names to show up under "Music Composer." (Ohtani, Tokoi, Maeda, Kobayashi and Nakagawa [and perhaps Sawada if we're lucky]).
[[EDIT: Only Ohtani and Tokoi from the above set made it, along with Yutaka Minobe and Richard Jacques (as Richard Jacques Studios).]]

To get somewhat back to the thread topic, this is the closest we're gonna get to a confirmation that Senoue did Balloon Park and Endless Mine at least until an OST drops, and anyone who says HC and MG are from MJ's side of the yard should call it quits. They've been reused in an official game. It's over.
This post has been edited by E102: 10 November 2011 - 11:37 PM

#69 User is offline LOst 

Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:43 PM

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View PostE102, on 29 October 2011 - 12:10 AM, said:

8 KNUCKLES' CHAOTIX ------------------------------- Midnight Greenhouse --------------- *[blank space]*


From: http://www.youtube.c...d&v=2wHAEGuzVxQ

Quote

8 KNUCKLES' CHAOTIX ------------------------------- Midnight Greenhouse --------------- Junko Shiratsu

Andlabs thread about Junko Shiratsu:
http://forums.sonicr...showtopic=21092



Oh, if only they had told the real credits of Angel Island Act 1 and Mushroom Hill Act 1! And the Sega sound as well!
This post has been edited by LOst: 03 November 2011 - 07:46 PM

#70 User is offline E102 

Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:23 PM

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View PostLOst, on 03 November 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

From: http://www.youtube.c...d&v=2wHAEGuzVxQ
8 KNUCKLES' CHAOTIX ------------------------------- Midnight Greenhouse --------------- Junko Shiratsu


I figured as much; they just didn't say anything until now, but at least we now know that Chaotix credits do exist. I've personally pinned Nanba to all the boss-related tracks (through Child's Song) and nothing else.

In reality, the only true gain from this release that couldn't be attained from preexisting information was from Sonic Rivals. Apparently, Forest Falls (aka the title/main theme) is also known as "Quick Trip to Paradise" and is done by Senoue (most likely composition and guitar) and Lee Brotherton (most likely arrangement and programming); the latter half was sort-of already known as the song is known to have been done by Remix Factory, but I digress. So at least we got something we would have otherwise never known about.

View PostLOst, on 03 November 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

Oh, if only they had told the real credits of Angel Island Act 1 and Mushroom Hill Act 1! And the Sega sound as well!


As I said before, this is truly our battle to fight, and Generations actually helped quite a bit more than I expected; associating some of the more troublesmone remaining tracks with Senoue and providing more MJ et al. evidence for any neigh-sayers that still remain.
Hopefully Nagao will provide that one last big break we need to finally put an end to this.
This post has been edited by E102: 05 November 2011 - 05:08 PM

#71 User is offline LOst 

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I have to say Nagao is very difficult to understand. The language barrier is almost too great here. Everything that I got from Nagao is so off that I can't use it as "proof". We have to give evilhamwizard more time before we can fully understand what Nagao means with his words.


But one thing has been clear from the start: Jun Senoue has given his credits for Sonic 3 along time ago, and his work is cast in stone. We can't add more tracks to his credits list. Like Baloon Park that sounds so much like him, and the remix used in Generations, still isn't his original work.

#72 User is offline evilhamwizard 

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He's still busy, but I guess I can let you all in on some stuff.

From what I've gathered so far, Nagao was involved with rearranging and programming songs into the game. He doesn't remember actually composing any songs, but he does remember arranging Hydrocity Act 2. He told me he "produced" almost half the songs for the game, but I'm not too sure what this means. He wasn't actually employed at OPUS corp at the time, but he implied that he was getting ready to move on to that company at the time and put it down in the credits list. He told me that the Sonic 3 main theme was possibly done by Masafumi Ogata and was somewhat a rearrangement of the original Sonic 1/2 theme. He later told me that Ogata contributed the theme song for Sonic Drift (not sure which one, can't remember at the moment) and Nagao arranged it - but he didn't get credit for it. He also told me that Uwabo was his boss, and Sachio Ogawa and Ogata were both colleagues of his at the time. I later found a way to get in touch with Bo, and he told me the same thing that Nagao told me (he also told me that he didn't contribute anything music/sound wise to the game, and also said that he doesn't remember any "secret" things that went on during the time). I still need some clarification on a few things, so please take this with a grain of salt and most importantly don't treat this as entirely fact yet (don't spread this information around, etc).

But anyway, what I'm getting at is that the music for Sonic 3/K came from all over from different sources besides SST and MJJ (the company that those US composers are from). Not only that, but they gave poor credits to everyone. The original plan was to have Jackson compose music for the game while his coworkers from MJJ would arrange demo tracks to be sent to Japan for programming. The impression I got from listening to the soundtrack of the game was that Jackson's "work" wasn't removed, but he withdrew from contributing anything more than what he had done. This is my opinion on the matter so far. I know who else to talk to in regards to this, but it's going to take me a little more time. But beside the Jackson crap, the majority of the music from the game was arranged either by a few members from the Sega Sound Team or was brought in from other sources. These sources were Drossin, Studio Who, Cube, etc. I know one person from Cube that openly admits to contributing music for Sonic 3, but I haven't contacted them yet. This person was not credited on the game at all, only their company. Maeda also contributed music, Senoue did as well. Milpo contributed one song only and programmed the driver, Setsu did programming, arrangement, and sound effects. But besides that there aren't many people left on the SST that could have contributed music. Which leads me to believe that the music was brought in from other sources, hand picked, and sent to the team members to program. Hence why Drossin was contacted out of the blue to just create a bunch of songs while only like 3 of them were used.

This ultimately explains why Sega can't seem to give proper credit on these tracks anymore. The music they received came from all sorts of places, and having who did what is not available to them and probably never was. There's a chance that since Maeda is still on board, maybe Ogawa, etc that they can pick out which tracks they did themselves. But as far as I know, chances are very slim of ever finding out who did what on every track. I'm still figuring things out as I talk to people, so please be patient.
This post has been edited by evilhamwizard: 05 November 2011 - 09:15 PM

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Holy shit, excellent work. I can't wait to hear more!

Quote

But one thing has been clear from the start: Jun Senoue has given his credits for Sonic 3 along time ago, and his work is cast in stone. We can't add more tracks to his credits list. Like Baloon Park that sounds so much like him, and the remix used in Generations, still isn't his original work.


Really? I thought Senoue never talked about what he did on Sonic 3. Which tracks, if any, did he do besides the ones we know from Sonic 3D?

#74 User is offline XCubed 

Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

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evilhamwizard.....awesome! Keep up the good work and keep us posted! I can't believe how much of a mess this has been. I wonder if any other game had nearly the amount of individual music contributions as Sonic 3(&K). Was the S&K Miniboss which replaces S3's when connected also created by Howard Drossin? The strange thing is that the music DOES exist in Sonic 3 (alone), unlike the newer Knuckles theme. I'm still thankful for the Sonic 2 cart swap trick to experience this from the real hardware (love programmers who build upon instead of always building from scratch).

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:08 AM

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A couple pages back in this thread there's an interview with Howard Drossin where he says the only songs of his that were used in the game were the S&K theme (and by extension, its variations) and Knuckles' S&K theme.

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