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Brad Buxer and the S3 Mid Boss Theme One step closer to the truth, or?

#46 User is offline LOst 

Posted 21 October 2011 - 04:56 PM

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View PostJami393, on 21 October 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

I know we know the truth with Michael's music being in the final version of Sonic 3, but couldn't we ask those who composed the tracks that replaced them in the PC version?

We can only ask the people that is credited. And we don't know who composed the PC version music (no one extra were credited). First step is to find out who composed each track. Then the next step is to contact that person, and hopefully one day we will know who made what. I find it more interesting to know who made each music track rather than knowing MJ was behind it.

#47 User is offline E102 

Posted 21 October 2011 - 05:43 PM

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View PostJami393, on 21 October 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

I know we know the truth with Michael's music being in the final version of Sonic 3, but couldn't we ask those who composed the tracks that replaced them in the PC version?


That would be Setsumaru. He coordinated.

Here's some info about USP and its members: http://vgmdb.net/artist/6856

Production Credits (PC Version Staff)
......
Sound Coordinator: Masaru Setsumaru
Sound Arrangers: Shigeaki Irie (USP), Masaaki Nishizawa (USP), Goro Takahashi (USP)


View PostLOst, on 21 October 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

We can only ask the people that is credited. And we don't know who composed the PC version music (no one extra were credited). First step is to find out who composed each track. Then the next step is to contact that person, and hopefully one day we will know who made what. I find it more interesting to know who made each music track rather than knowing MJ was behind it.


*Points up*
I see plenty to start with, but Setsumaru is the most likely simply because he's the only one from Sega. For reference, here's some of his so-called bossa nova from Eraser.

#48 User is offline Jami393 

Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:07 AM

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View PostE102, on 21 October 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

View PostJami393, on 21 October 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

I know we know the truth with Michael's music being in the final version of Sonic 3, but couldn't we ask those who composed the tracks that replaced them in the PC version?


That would be Setsumaru. He coordinated.

Here's some info about USP and its members: http://vgmdb.net/artist/6856

Production Credits (PC Version Staff)
......
Sound Coordinator: Masaru Setsumaru
Sound Arrangers: Shigeaki Irie (USP), Masaaki Nishizawa (USP), Goro Takahashi (USP)


View PostLOst, on 21 October 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

We can only ask the people that is credited. And we don't know who composed the PC version music (no one extra were credited). First step is to find out who composed each track. Then the next step is to contact that person, and hopefully one day we will know who made what. I find it more interesting to know who made each music track rather than knowing MJ was behind it.


*Points up*
I see plenty to start with, but Setsumaru is the most likely simply because he's the only one from Sega. For reference, here's some of his so-called bossa nova from Eraser.


Couldn't we ask this Setsumaru on his part of Sonic & Knuckles Collection. @LOst My theory behind Sonic 3 is that Michael composed the music, then he got Brad to re-arrange and co-compose the tracks. Also the others who worked with Michael could also been part of re-arraging the tracks within the game. I also have a question on Sonic 3's music. Why isn't Teddy Riley credited? Because the New Jack Swing is used in Knuckles' theme and the miniboss theme, isn't it?

#49 User is offline LOst 

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View PostJami393, on 22 October 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

@LOst My theory behind Sonic 3 is that Michael composed the music, then he got Brad to re-arrange and co-compose the tracks. Also the others who worked with Michael could also been part of re-arraging the tracks within the game. I also have a question on Sonic 3's music. Why isn't Teddy Riley credited? Because the New Jack Swing is used in Knuckles' theme and the miniboss theme, isn't it?

Forgive me for not knowing what New Jack Swing is. The reason while Teddy Riley isn't credited is because he wasn't part of the game development. It is a big difference between Teddy and Brad when it comes to involvement with Michael. Brad Buxer and Michael had a long close relationship, seeing and understanding while composing music together, whereas Teddy... I don't know, but what I have seen from Teddy in his music commercials is that he seems like the guy who wants more control, instead of working side by side.

Your theory might be right, but Michael isn't credited in Sonic 3. He was credited in a "The Simpson's" episode. Brad on the other hand is credited, and credited first in a list of MJ composers, so it is most likely that Brad came up with music for Sonic 3 under the MJ supervision rather than MJ coming up with the music and giving Brad the job to put it in Sonic 3.

What I mean in the end, Michael Jackson is probably not so involved in the actual final product on Sonic 3 as most people hope. Even without the 1993 scandal.


I am more interested in Brad Buxer than Michael Jackson. Trying to make him aware that his work was actually good and not having to bring up Michael Jackson will take us one step closer to the truth about who made what in Sonic 3.

#50 User is offline sonicthesnot 

Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:24 PM

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View PostLOst, on 23 October 2011 - 07:01 AM, said:

View PostJami393, on 22 October 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

@LOst My theory behind Sonic 3 is that Michael composed the music, then he got Brad to re-arrange and co-compose the tracks. Also the others who worked with Michael could also been part of re-arraging the tracks within the game. I also have a question on Sonic 3's music. Why isn't Teddy Riley credited? Because the New Jack Swing is used in Knuckles' theme and the miniboss theme, isn't it?

Forgive me for not knowing what New Jack Swing is. The reason while Teddy Riley isn't credited is because he wasn't part of the game development. It is a big difference between Teddy and Brad when it comes to involvement with Michael. Brad Buxer and Michael had a long close relationship, seeing and understanding while composing music together, whereas Teddy... I don't know, but what I have seen from Teddy in his music commercials is that he seems like the guy who wants more control, instead of working side by side.

Your theory might be right, but Michael isn't credited in Sonic 3. He was credited in a "The Simpson's" episode. Brad on the other hand is credited, and credited first in a list of MJ composers, so it is most likely that Brad came up with music for Sonic 3 under the MJ supervision rather than MJ coming up with the music and giving Brad the job to put it in Sonic 3.

What I mean in the end, Michael Jackson is probably not so involved in the actual final product on Sonic 3 as most people hope. Even without the 1993 scandal.


I am more interested in Brad Buxer than Michael Jackson. Trying to make him aware that his work was actually good and not having to bring up Michael Jackson will take us one step closer to the truth about who made what in Sonic 3.


I'm curious as to why Buxer (and the rest of that crew) are so opposed to discussing Sonic 3. Frankly, I was quite surprised that Buxer acknowledged his involvement in the game with MJ in that 2009 interview.

I'm almost 99% sure that the following tracks are the MJ tracks: Sonic 3 Title, Marble Garden, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Sonic 3 Credits, and the Competition Select, but it would be great if we could get one of MJs guys to actually listen to soundtrack to pick out what they composed. However, given the fact that 17+ years have passed, and given their general adversity to talking about Sonic 3, I'm not too optimistic.

#51 User is offline Ch1pper 

Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:49 PM

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Every one you listed besides Title Screen give me an MJ vibe, but besides that...

...The Title Screen has appeared sprinkled throughout the series here and there. It was rearranged for the ending scene (which was watered down from that credits medley in S3+/proto-whatever-it-was), was used in Pocket Adventure as the Title Screen theme and re-arranged a few other times throughout Pocket Adventure for the Special Stage and ending credits. Maybe a few more times.

And, of all things, Jun recycled the 1-Up arrangement (also an S3 Title arrangement) for Sonic 4: Episode 1.

I just have my doubts that it could/would appear off and on so freely over the years if it were really within the mysterious circle of Team Jackson-related songs.
This post has been edited by Ch1pper: 23 October 2011 - 11:51 PM

#52 User is offline sonicthesnot 

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View PostCh1pper, on 23 October 2011 - 11:49 PM, said:

Every one you listed besides Title Screen give me an MJ vibe, but besides that...

...The Title Screen has appeared sprinkled throughout the series here and there. It was rearranged for the ending scene (which was watered down from that credits medley in S3+/proto-whatever-it-was), was used in Pocket Adventure as the Title Screen theme and re-arranged a few other times throughout Pocket Adventure for the Special Stage and ending credits. Maybe a few more times.

And, of all things, Jun recycled the 1-Up arrangement (also an S3 Title arrangement) for Sonic 4: Episode 1.

I just have my doubts that it could/would appear off and on so freely over the years if it were really within the mysterious circle of Team Jackson-related songs.


The reason why I think the S3 theme was done by MJ and crew is because of its syncopated bass line, which is very similar to the one S3 credits theme. It's also rather uninteresting -- basically the same note repeated for an entire measure, which is also very similar in structure to both the Ice Cap and S3 credits bass line.

The other song I could see being one of MJs is the Azure (sp?) Lake competition zone. It would be great if someone from that crew could just step forward and say what happened.

#53 User is offline LOst 

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View Postsonicthesnot, on 24 October 2011 - 09:13 AM, said:

View PostCh1pper, on 23 October 2011 - 11:49 PM, said:

Every one you listed besides Title Screen give me an MJ vibe, but besides that...

...The Title Screen has appeared sprinkled throughout the series here and there. It was rearranged for the ending scene (which was watered down from that credits medley in S3+/proto-whatever-it-was), was used in Pocket Adventure as the Title Screen theme and re-arranged a few other times throughout Pocket Adventure for the Special Stage and ending credits. Maybe a few more times.

And, of all things, Jun recycled the 1-Up arrangement (also an S3 Title arrangement) for Sonic 4: Episode 1.

I just have my doubts that it could/would appear off and on so freely over the years if it were really within the mysterious circle of Team Jackson-related songs.


The reason why I think the S3 theme was done by MJ and crew is because of its syncopated bass line, which is very similar to the one S3 credits theme. It's also rather uninteresting -- basically the same note repeated for an entire measure, which is also very similar in structure to both the Ice Cap and S3 credits bass line.

The other song I could see being one of MJs is the Azure (sp?) Lake competition zone. It would be great if someone from that crew could just step forward and say what happened.

You can go by melody, but not by voices. A music in Sonic is composed and arranged, sometimes by different people. You have probably heard what I have heard, that the title screen music sounds simular to some of the to be believed MJ tracks, but it may be only for the reason the arranger was the same guy, but not the composers.

The title screen could potentially have the credits: Music by Jun Senorate, Arranged by Super Bo. And the Azure Lake could potentially have the credits: Music by Tomonari Swanson, Arranged by Super Bo. And the Mid Boss music could potentially have the credits: Music by Brad Baxter, Arranged by Super Bo. In such a case, the only reason they sound simular is because they share the same arranger, not that they were composed by the Michael Schumacher team. (Names not confirmed!)

#54 User is offline Ch1pper 

Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:14 PM

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I forgot to add that, personally, I get an MJ-style vibe from HydroCity Zone as well -- both Acts, in fact. But I'm gonna blab about other stages first...

It's interesting concerning the other tracks:

A >> Carnival Night, IceCap and Launch Base are glaringly obvious re-arrangements in the most basic sense: same instruments, same tempo, they could easily be merged into one longer track with no noticeable differences between Act arrangements. This is odd considering the effort that went into the rest of the soundtrack.

B >> Other Zones (Angel Island, HydroCity, S&K Zones) all carry some very distinctive differences between Act arrangements - any combination of changes in tempo/time signiture (Lava Reef/ Hidden Palace), musical style (HydroCity), etc.

C >> Meanwhile, Marble Garden and Death Egg strike me as being right in between A and B: There's a slight tempo change and swap from a major chord to a minor chord between acts (MGZ), and some rather slight differences in instruments between Acts (more noticeable in MGZ; I hardly hear anything in DEZ), resulting in what I've perceived as "overall just the same song" (A) in both acts as opposed to most other songs' "noticeably different, separate arrangements of the same tune." (B)

Now, as for HydroCity...
I said that both acts give me different stylistic vibes, from the same '80s-to-'90s era MJ tracks. By this, admittedly I mostly mean that with each Act arrangement, I can imagine hearing Jackson's vocals fairly easily over either version. This is just personal speculation, with no real "theory" to speak of, that I will gladly chalk up to [Setsumaru? Okay, Whoever] just doing a great arrangement. I don't really feel strongly one way or the other, save for the fact that, with the limited information we have, current signs point to being [whoever]'s arrangement.


...As I've asked before, am I making sense? I imagine I spend longer typing responses than most here in an effort to come across as clear as I can, but I wind up taking so long that I often lose focus of my original point, so I apologize if I fail at clarity. :specialed:

#55 User is offline XCubed 

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I happen to agress with everything you've pulled apart, but I believe one person (it was said a few pages back or in another thread?) rearranged all the act 2 songs. If that's the case, they were really lazy for some songs and really creative with others.

#56 User is offline Afro Thunder 

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View PostCh1pper, on 26 October 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

I forgot to add that, personally, I get an MJ-style vibe from HydroCity Zone as well -- both Acts, in fact.


Wasn't It confrimed on Circocio's (is that the right spelling?) discography that he, Michael and the sound team worked on Hydrocity? Maybe that's why there seems to be a bit of MJ's style in the song, though like you said, we're both probably spitballing here.

I think it's very unlikely that MJ did any actual composing, as he said in a 1993 deposition in Mexico that he usually went to a tape recorder and beatboxed the sounds he was hearing in his head, then gave the recording to his producers.

And not to go too of topic here, but some music in the Sonic sereis had other musical influneces as well. For instance, "Best of My Love," by The Emotions, bears some similarity to Sonic 1's Laybrinth Zone, and Bobby Brown's "Every Little Step" shares a similar bassline and structure to Spring Yard Zone.

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View PostCh1pper, on 26 October 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

swap from a major chord to a minor chord between acts (MGZ)

Marble Garden's bridge is a major for Act 1, and minor for Act 2.
Flying Battery's chorus background is in major for Act 1, and minor for Act 2.

Now, for all the believed to be MJ music (Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base), the Act 2 remixes are usually just simple voice removing going on.

Marble Garden's guitar riff may only be a copy of the guitar riff from Launch Base, so I believe that Hydrocity and Marble Garden were not MJ produced. Hydrocity were composed by some great unknown composer though, that we can agree on. If I were that composer, I would step up and take some credits for it.

#58 User is offline Afro Thunder 

Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:06 PM

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View PostLOst, on 27 October 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostCh1pper, on 26 October 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

swap from a major chord to a minor chord between acts (MGZ)

Marble Garden's bridge is a major for Act 1, and minor for Act 2.
Flying Battery's chorus background is in major for Act 1, and minor for Act 2.

Now, for all the believed to be MJ music (Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base), the Act 2 remixes are usually just simple voice removing going on.

Marble Garden's guitar riff may only be a copy of the guitar riff from Launch Base, so I believe that Hydrocity and Marble Garden were not MJ produced. Hydrocity were composed by some great unknown composer though, that we can agree on. If I were that composer, I would step up and take some credits for it.


If that is the case then, it seems strange that Cirocco would solely credit only MJ, himself, and Buxer for composing MGZ and HCZ.
This post has been edited by Afro Thunder: 27 October 2011 - 01:28 PM

#59 User is offline sonicthesnot 

Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:36 PM

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View PostAfro Thunder, on 27 October 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostCh1pper, on 26 October 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

I forgot to add that, personally, I get an MJ-style vibe from HydroCity Zone as well -- both Acts, in fact.


Wasn't It confrimed on Circocio's (is that the right spelling?) discography that he, Michael and the sound team worked on Hydrocity? Maybe that's why there seems to be a bit of MJ's style in the song, though like you said, we're both probably spitballing here.

I think it's very unlikely that MJ did any actual composing, as he said in a 1993 deposition in Mexico that he usually went to a tape recorder and beatboxed the sounds he was hearing in his head, then gave the recording to his producers.

And not to go too of topic here, but some music in the Sonic sereis had other musical influneces as well. For instance, "Best of My Love," by The Emotions, bears some similarity to Sonic 1's Laybrinth Zone, and Bobby Brown's "Every Little Step" shares a similar bassline and structure to Spring Yard Zone.


I wouldn't put too much faith in Cirico's web page. If the development of Sonic 3 was anything like 1 and 2, then the music composition started during the storyboard stage of game development (I.e. very early.) Who knows if levels 2 and 3 were originally Hydrocity and Marble Garden. Also, even if Cirico and MJ did do Hydrocity and Marble Garden, there versions may have been replaced at some point. However, with that being said, I'm still pretty confident that Marble Garden is one of the MJ & Co. tracks. Not sure about Hydrocity.

#60 User is offline Afro Thunder 

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View Postsonicthesnot, on 27 October 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

I wouldn't put too much faith in Cirico's web page. If the development of Sonic 3 was anything like 1 and 2, then the music composition started during the storyboard stage of game development (I.e. very early.) Who knows if levels 2 and 3 were originally Hydrocity and Marble Garden. Also, even if Cirico and MJ did do Hydrocity and Marble Garden, there versions may have been replaced at some point. However, with that being said, I'm still pretty confident that Marble Garden is one of the MJ & Co. tracks. Not sure about Hydrocity.


I can't argue with that, but I still think it's very unlikely that MJ had any direct involvement, other than giving his demos to the sound team, and probably overseeing the production of the tracks.

Another thing that's been bugging me for a long time: When exactly was MJ brought in? because almost anytime I read an article on this, it's usually said to have been near the very late stages of final development.

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