Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board: You all suck at programming - Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board

Jump to content

Hey there, Guest!  (Log In · Register) Help
  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
    Locked
    Locked Forum

You all suck at programming

#31 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:05 PM

  • Substitute Meerkovo IT Chief
  • Posts: 17148
  • Joined: 12-January 03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berkshire, England
  • Project:VGDB
  • Wiki edits:3,204
I've been writing code on and off now for the better part of a decade (earlier if you want to count BBC BASIC at school. =P), and I've even released one or two hacking apps, but even now looking at ASM code makes my brain explode. I did a crappy little Sonic 2 hack long ago and I know there's no point in me even bothering to try doing anything further with it becase although I can program, I'm simply not at a high enough level to do it - and I doubt I ever will. Even C/C++ makes my brain ache.

I'll stick to my desktop apps and PHP scripting, I think. =P

while (OLHasNoAbilityToUseASM) { whine(); return 0; }

#32 User is offline Supakitsune 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:42 PM

  • It's TECHNOSTASY, SINCE 1987
  • Posts: 1603
  • Joined: 29-December 03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Wiki edits:7

View Postjman2050, on Apr 7 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

View PostSupakitsune, on Apr 7 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

Personally, I still have a long way to go before I can consider myself a programmer in any way, shape, or form.

However, I do like that this community encourages people to progress, instead of just dumping an all-purposes tool into a turd's lap and letting them fly. *coughsmw-hackingcough*


hey man, diss the SMW community all you want, but don't even touch Lunar Magic. It's still arguably the single best hacking tool for a specific game in existence, and for good reason.

Eh, perhaps I posted in haste.. Recently I've been seeing less of the "generic same-ol'-hack" that was once all too common, and more of the "creative-use-of-LunarMagic-and-ASM-hacks" type of hack, and indeed, Lunar Magic is great. Its comprehensiveness doesn't seem to have been matched by any hacking tool yet.

Guess that's what I get for posting with my fingers and not my head.

#33 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:57 PM

  • Posts: 12389
  • Joined: 27-June 04
  • Gender:Male
Lunar Magic is like ESE—it's a wonderful tool, but it's abused to high-hell by people who would otherwise have no idea what they're doing. Everybody uses the same freely-available graphics in every hack ever and I've not seen a thread of originality in a Mario hack since the VIP series. It's like people can't function on their own, with the exception of a select few (BMF is a brilliant programmer, for example).

I tried for years to learn how to do things manually, without tools, or format breakdowns, etc... but I've found absolutely nothing. It annoyed the hell out of me, because I wanted to learn how things worked internally, not how to work a tool.

#34 User is offline Upthorn 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:27 PM

  • TAS
  • Posts: 239
  • Joined: 23-October 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Wiki edits:23

View PostHayate, on Apr 7 2008, 04:30 AM, said:

I contradict the title of this topic.

I contradict you. You do a lot of coding, but very little programming. You get credit for trying new things, but your hack releases are buggy as hell-- you can type out 1000 lines a day or however much, but if you can't design it so that it works, or if you can't analyze your design to see how it's flawed, it's not really worth a whole lot. Part of what Jman was saying in IRC yesterday, as what prompeted him to make this topic, is that nobody seems to realize that 90% of programming is bugfixing.

#35 User is offline Hayate 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:43 PM

  • Posts: 2379
  • Joined: 01-February 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Torquay, England
  • Wiki edits:70

View PostUpthorn, on Apr 7 2008, 10:27 PM, said:

your hack releases are buggy as hell


SATSEE Beta 4 was buggy as hell. Almost every bug in it has already been fixed, though. Beta 5 will be much less buggy.

Quote

if you can't analyze your design to see how it's flawed


I often write new code and realize while I'm writing it that there will be a minor problem with it. If said problem would take a long time to fix, is minor, and the added buggy code makes the result better overall than without, I ignore it, implement the feature, release and worry about fixing it later.

Quote

nobody seems to realize that 90% of programming is bugfixing.


90% of what I do /is/ bugfixing. Over half of the SATSEE builds redscreen as soon as I try to do whatever new thing I added.

Here's a question I have for you: As far as I can see (and not trying to boast or anything here), SATSEE has more total added features than any other hack I can think of. Because of that, it naturally has proportionally more bugs. Do you know why? Because I don't worry about the bugs. I know what I want in my hack, and I know a release sooner is better. New SATSEE versions come out relatively fast because I pay little attention to minor bugs, especially if I can easily fix them after the release for the next version.

Ignoring private tech members' lounge betas of anything, people have to stick to old versions of most hacks, which don't have any of the features they see e.g. all over Youtube. When I start announcing new features, I keep working on it until a release, and if I go on hiatus (which I do a lot), it happens after the release, not after adding something awesome without releasing it. I think players would be much happier ignoring a few minor bugs in a build full of lots of new features than downloading revision after revision only to have a bug or two fixed.

#36 User is offline drx 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:47 PM

  • <Shade> fuck MJ
  • Posts: 2175
  • Joined: 02-March 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Project::rolleyes:
  • Wiki edits:8
Let me paraphrase this into perspective:

Ignoring private betas of anything, people have to stick to old versions of Windows, which don't have any of the features they see e.g. all over Youtube. When MS starts announcing new features, it keeps working on it until a release, (...). I think consumers would be much happier ignoring a few minor bugs in a build full of lots of new features than downloading update after update only to have a bug or two fixed.

/joke

#37 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:47 PM

  • Posts: 12389
  • Joined: 27-June 04
  • Gender:Male
Releasing before bugfixing is the absolute worst thing you could ever do in any situation, no matter what you're working on.

Secondly, Megamix has shittons more than SATSEE, so please get over yourself. And, if not Megamix, than S1EE still knocks your shit out of the water. The worst thing about you is that not only do you do things poorly, but your ego is so huge that you can proclaim it as the "right way" while completely disregarding basic principles of design. If you think "release now, fix later" is the right ideology to follow, then I'm insulted that you're even attempting to call yourself a true programmer.

#38 User is offline Hayate 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:40 PM

  • Posts: 2379
  • Joined: 01-February 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Torquay, England
  • Wiki edits:70

Tweaker said:

blah blah blah


How would you like me to say

Quote

Okay everyone, I'm not releasing another version of SATSEE until every single bug in it is fixed. Have fun playing beta 4 for the next three years!


?

Besides, I do want to get beta 5 in this year's hacking contest.

I hope this isn't going to make me go the same way as nineko any time soon. -_-;;

now if you'll excuse me, I must go train my pokemans.

#39 User is offline jman2050 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:45 PM

  • Teh Sonik Haker
  • Posts: 633
  • Joined: 10-December 05
  • Wiki edits:4

Quote

Okay everyone, I'm not releasing another version of SATSEE until every single bug in it is fixed. Have fun playing beta 4 for the next three years!


Actually, yeah, that's precisely what I think you should say.

#40 User is offline nineko 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:46 PM

  • I am the Holy Cat
  • Posts: 5684
  • Joined: 17-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:italy
  • Project:I... don't even know anymore :U
  • Wiki edits:5,251

View PostHayate, on Apr 8 2008, 12:40 AM, said:

I hope this isn't going to make me go the same way as nineko any time soon. -_-;;
what

#41 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:58 PM

  • Posts: 12389
  • Joined: 27-June 04
  • Gender:Male

View PostHayate, on Apr 7 2008, 06:40 PM, said:

Tweaker said:

blah blah blah


How would you like me to say

Quote

Okay everyone, I'm not releasing another version of SATSEE until every single bug in it is fixed. Have fun playing beta 4 for the next three years!


?

Yup!

Quote

I hope this isn't going to make me go the same way as nineko any time soon. -_-;;

Wow, you're a prick.

#42 User is offline Bit-Blade 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:44 PM

  • Posts: 55
  • Joined: 13-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Project:Risonic
Good topic. I actually started getting that logical thinking thing going in '06, but I stopped because work was getting more intense (blech customer service?).

The point in reinventing the wheel is to learn how its done. Even if you do it very poorly, it gives you experience and the nudge in the right direction you need to continue farther.

It's also bad to see the concept of originality poisoning people from doing what they want. Just because 'The Great Things have been done by the Great People" already doesn't mean it wouldn't be a learning experience to try to do it yourself too.

Which means I should probably start trying to write demos and see what happens, rather than reading up and thinking about it and doing nothing. I've found 68k asm to be more understandable to me than anything else I've tried to do.

#43 User is online Dark Sonic 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:03 PM

  • Posts: 11754
  • Joined: 21-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Project:Working on my art!
  • Wiki edits:10

View PostTweaker, on Apr 7 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

View PostHayate, on Apr 7 2008, 06:40 PM, said:

How would you like me to say

Quote

Okay everyone, I'm not releasing another version of SATSEE until every single bug in it is fixed. Have fun playing beta 4 for the next three years!

?

Yup!

Well I kinda agree with both here. If I remember correctly, version 4 was very buggy. But also at least people get to try it every so often. If it's fixed in the end, does the quality of a demo really matter?

This is not to say that I don't appreciate the bug fixing in hacks such as Megamix and Extended Edition, as those are really fun to play, however the wait is often longer than what I'd like.
This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 07 April 2008 - 07:04 PM

#44 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:06 PM

  • Posts: 12389
  • Joined: 27-June 04
  • Gender:Male
It doesn't matter what you'd like, though—you're not the one putting all of your free time into it with no benefit other than personal bragging rights and having made a quality product. :(

#45 User is online Dark Sonic 

Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:31 PM

  • Posts: 11754
  • Joined: 21-April 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Project:Working on my art!
  • Wiki edits:10

View PostTweaker, on Apr 7 2008, 04:06 PM, said:

It doesn't matter what you'd like, though—you're not the one putting all of your free time into it with no benefit other than personal bragging rights and having made a quality product. :(

Well of course ultimately it is your decision to release your work when you want. After all it is your work. I'm just saying what I like, which in the long run of things doesn't matter all to much. Doesn't mean I can't say it though.

  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
    Locked
    Locked Forum

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users