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Sonic 2 sharing assets I'm starting to wonder if it did this with more zones

#31 User is offline Zycor 

Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:12 PM

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View PostHez, on 04 June 2019 - 01:21 PM, said:

View PostZycor, on 01 June 2019 - 11:45 AM, said:

I remember when the Sonic 2 mobile port came out, I swear I read a thing saying that the layout used in that port was the "furthest along the layout was ever designed" but that doesn't make much sense because it doesn't really seem like the level would have been plausible in that specific capacity on the original 16 bit hardware. Has anyone ported that layout to Sonic 2 on the Genesis? Out of curiosity? Unless the quote I'm thinking of was for the original idea where you'd just play until the "Master Emerald" looking stone and it'd warp you back to Mystic Cave.


Taxmans port was completely original. I love the remake, but the layout really didn't match the Sonic 2 gameplay.

It may have been in that interview talking about the beta layout. I don't remember exactly, unfortunately that interview's link is probably buried on the forum. It would make more sense if it was the beta layout being talked about, as far as we know the Hidden Palace zone wasn't worked on any further between the betas and the final release. I want to say a designer from Sonic 2 said the layout in the remake was the "final layout they had in mind" or something. My memory isn't great, I could be remembering something else completely unrelated.

#32 User is offline Hendricks 266 

Posted 05 June 2019 - 07:09 PM

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View PostHEDGESMFG, on 30 May 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

Nowhere else in the game is any sort of cutscene code/function added, yet Naka's interview hints that this might have been the intention here. Programming this sort of function may have taken time they didn't necessarily have, especially as it would require extra story-boarding, and possibly specialized animation too. We already know from the CENSOR/Beta 4 ROMs how last second of an addition Super Sonic was.

There is a cutscene, and it's at the end of Wing Fortress, which as mentioned was one of the last things developed before final. A Hidden Palace cutscene could have been one of the next things to do if time had permitted.

#33 User is offline Chainspike 

Posted 06 June 2019 - 06:32 AM

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There are actually a total of four cutscenes; the Wing Fortress flyby in Sky Chase, the tornado getting shot down, the rocket ship scene, and then the ending sequence. You can see how near the end of Sonic 2's development they began adding more plot and stage transitional elements similar to Sonic 3. It would have been quite interesting to see what could have been done if they had more time.

#34 User is offline XRick 

Posted 06 June 2019 - 06:55 AM

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Aren't there still people out there related to Sonic 2's development who could be interviewed about it?
Maybe some more conceptual secrets could come out and help the community completing this puzzle.
This post has been edited by XRick: 06 June 2019 - 06:55 AM

#35 User is offline LordOfSquad 

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View PostHez, on 05 June 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:

Has any hack ever fixed that issue with the wrapping? I swear I remember one having the platform rising as intended?


Yeah, there was definitely one hack that did this. I don't recall which of the three or fourteen Sonic 2+ hacks it was but it exists because I distinctly remember playing it over and over again and it was one slow ass lift.

#36 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 06 June 2019 - 08:26 AM

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View PostLordOfSquad, on 06 June 2019 - 07:12 AM, said:

View PostHez, on 05 June 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:

Has any hack ever fixed that issue with the wrapping? I swear I remember one having the platform rising as intended?


Yeah, there was definitely one hack that did this. I don't recall which of the three or fourteen Sonic 2+ hacks it was but it exists because I distinctly remember playing it over and over again and it was one slow ass lift.

Esrael Neto's Sonic 2 Delta?

#37 User is offline Random Gaming 

Posted 08 June 2019 - 06:34 AM

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After seeing this forum I've been thinking, what if Metropolis and Cyber City (Genocide City) had reused assets, I mean they were both mechanical levels and Metropolis Zone Act 3 is literally Cyber City Zone. I mean they couldn't have just taken something from a zone like Chemical Plant and made it match Metropolis, while they could definitely take Hill Top Act 1 and with a few tweaks, less bottomless pits and different badniks and assets make it Emerald Hill Act 3. Think about it.

#38 User is offline rata 

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View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 05 June 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Labyrinth zone handles y-axis warping and active water without issues.


But it happens at the very first part of the level, a little while before you find any water on it.

#39 User is offline SystemsReady 

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View PostRandom Gaming, on 08 June 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

After seeing this forum I've been thinking, what if Metropolis and Cyber City (Genocide City) had reused assets, I mean they were both mechanical levels and Metropolis Zone Act 3 is literally Cyber City Zone. I mean they couldn't have just taken something from a zone like Chemical Plant and made it match Metropolis, while they could definitely take Hill Top Act 1 and with a few tweaks, less bottomless pits and different badniks and assets make it Emerald Hill Act 3. Think about it.


Apparently the assets for Cyber City were reused for The Machine in Sonic Spinball, which looks nothing like Metropolis Zone...

In terms of "assets that are not level art", Metropolis Act 3 exists solely to use the level map for Cyber City. They didn't have enough time to implement the level so they just put Metropolis art on it.
This post has been edited by SystemsReady: 08 June 2019 - 11:16 PM

#40 User is offline Chainspike 

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View PostSystemsReady, on 08 June 2019 - 11:15 PM, said:

Apparently the assets for Cyber City were reused for The Machine in Sonic Spinball, which looks nothing like Metropolis Zone...
It was also stated that Toxic Caves reused Hidden Palace assets, yet each stage only resembles one another slightly. Each zone could have been repurposed quite a bit for Sonic Spinball.

#41 User is online Sonic Hachelle-Bee 

Posted 09 June 2019 - 03:38 AM

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View Postrata, on 08 June 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 05 June 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Labyrinth zone handles y-axis warping and active water without issues.


But it happens at the very first part of the level, a little while before you find any water on it.

I was thinking about the boss section of LZ3. The level wraps, and the water is constantly rising.
Another alternative, you can easily remove the water mid-level in HPZ with some coding, and deal with the slope without any water present.

#42 User is offline rata 

Posted 10 June 2019 - 11:43 AM

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What? That part is a loop? Well that's new for me...

#43 User is offline LOst 

Posted 12 June 2019 - 05:48 AM

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View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 09 June 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

View Postrata, on 08 June 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 05 June 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Labyrinth zone handles y-axis warping and active water without issues.


But it happens at the very first part of the level, a little while before you find any water on it.

I was thinking about the boss section of LZ3. The level wraps, and the water is constantly rising.
Another alternative, you can easily remove the water mid-level in HPZ with some coding, and deal with the slope without any water present.


While I was doing research on level wrapping in general, I found out that Sonic 1 does wrapping in a very basic way. Not like the later games. Place a solid block (the owl head square block, number 17 in the debug list) at 0890 0070 (infinite slide area). Stand on top of it and jump and see Sonic get killed and the game to get stuck. You can do the same thing at 1BA0 0088 (around boss area). The red spring can also be used to send Sonic over the wrap point for an instant kill with the game waiting forever.
SBZ2 has some places too where it is possible to get killed, but I was unable to locate them at this time.

Wrapping is a complicated subject. Not even Sonic 3 does it in a good way (think speed running techniques). I have spent hours in New Super Mario Bros for DS and Wii and seen similar issues, that's with X wrapping (and those programmers basically invented platform games in the 80's).

We also know from early advertisment that LZ3's foreground tiles couldn't update in time for the wrapping, see this video https://youtu.be/jR98zOj0yiw?t=7 (pause around 7 seconds). Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 update foreground tiles duing vblank (against common practice, to keep interrupts as short as possible), and water level can really affect drawing of those tiles at the top of the screen (place a lamppost/starpost so that the water level is around 16-32 pixels from the top of the screen, and die. On level load see what happens, which also happens on high scrolling speeds under water). Sonic 3 moved the heavy work outside vblank (actually, I believe a lot of work was optimized [not usually for the better, features removed, etc] even more so it is not just related to vblank being delayed). Sonic 3 has a high scroll speed water level called Hydrocity, and was probably the wakeup call for the programmers to redo the level drawing code.

As a simplified point of view: Water + Y level Wrapping don't go hand in hand. In my opinion, deleting Hidden Palace Zone was the easiest solution to the problem.

#44 User is offline Hez 

Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:12 AM

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View PostLOst, on 12 June 2019 - 05:48 AM, said:

View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 09 June 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

View Postrata, on 08 June 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostSonic Hachelle-Bee, on 05 June 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Labyrinth zone handles y-axis warping and active water without issues.


But it happens at the very first part of the level, a little while before you find any water on it.

I was thinking about the boss section of LZ3. The level wraps, and the water is constantly rising.
Another alternative, you can easily remove the water mid-level in HPZ with some coding, and deal with the slope without any water present.


While I was doing research on level wrapping in general, I found out that Sonic 1 does wrapping in a very basic way. Not like the later games. Place a solid block (the owl head square block, number 17 in the debug list) at 0890 0070 (infinite slide area). Stand on top of it and jump and see Sonic get killed and the game to get stuck. You can do the same thing at 1BA0 0088 (around boss area). The red spring can also be used to send Sonic over the wrap point for an instant kill with the game waiting forever.
SBZ2 has some places too where it is possible to get killed, but I was unable to locate them at this time.

Wrapping is a complicated subject. Not even Sonic 3 does it in a good way (think speed running techniques). I have spent hours in New Super Mario Bros for DS and Wii and seen similar issues, that's with X wrapping (and those programmers basically invented platform games in the 80's).

We also know from early advertisment that LZ3's foreground tiles couldn't update in time for the wrapping, see this video https://youtu.be/jR98zOj0yiw?t=7 (pause around 7 seconds). Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 update foreground tiles duing vblank (against common practice, to keep interrupts as short as possible), and water level can really affect drawing of those tiles at the top of the screen (place a lamppost/starpost so that the water level is around 16-32 pixels from the top of the screen, and die. On level load see what happens, which also happens on high scrolling speeds under water). Sonic 3 moved the heavy work outside vblank (actually, I believe a lot of work was optimized [not usually for the better, features removed, etc] even more so it is not just related to vblank being delayed). Sonic 3 has a high scroll speed water level called Hydrocity, and was probably the wakeup call for the programmers to redo the level drawing code.

As a simplified point of view: Water + Y level Wrapping don't go hand in hand. In my opinion, deleting Hidden Palace Zone was the easiest solution to the problem.


I'm going to sound super ignorant, but couldn't they have just....removed the water? Gotten rid of it before the section required Y wrapping? Then had it come back after the fact?

#45 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 12 June 2019 - 01:12 PM

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I could be wrong, but I believe Sonic 2 Delta solved that problem by making it so that the level wraps around, but the Y coords don't. Going beyond the wraparound keeps increasing or decreasing the Y value (depending on whether you're going up or down). That way the water doesn't seemingly spawn everywhere at a point when going up the slope.
This post has been edited by Blue Spikeball: 12 June 2019 - 01:19 PM

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