[DTX]

AerosolSP, on 24 March 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

Ask yourself this: Is it evident that the ring sfx were meant to be quieter? The answer to this question shall also answer your own.

)= I was afraid someone would answer like that. No, I don't think they were meant to be quieter than they were. That doesn't make them any less annoying though. Still, aw... oh well, whatever. I guess it was a dumb idea to suggest it... )=

This post has been edited by DTX: 24 March 2012 - 03:56 AM

[DalekSam]

That One Jig, on 23 March 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Knucklez, on 23 March 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Ok so it's a limitation, and it only occurs in SSZ. I'm not too tech savvy but I'm assuming that since every other level runs just fine, then is it safe to assume that each of them run their music and SFX on seperate channels? And if so, would it be possible to add channels for SSZ to function like every other level?

Actually this "effect" can be noticed in every zone. If you're collecting several rings in rapid succession in a zone, try putting your ear right up to the speaker. That's the only way you'll hear the noise cancellation in the tune in other zones. It just isn't near as noticeable anywhere else because of instrument in use and the very high pitch it is playing at.

So, no, they don't play on separate channels in other zones. If they could, don't you think Sonic Team would've done that?

All right, let me clear this up one more time.

The Sega Mega Drive has only SIX FM channels. For the purposes of this discussion, Sky Sanctuary has its chords on a couple of those. Remember that these channels are MONOPHONIC, so only ONE sound can be played at a time on them. Now, you'll hear drum samples on the DAC channel. This removes the sixth channel for the purposes of sampling. Now, the ring SFX is on an FM channel too. It's hardcoded into the SFX to use the latter FM channels (4, 5, sometimes even 3 if nessaccary) to not disrupt the main melody or bassline of the song, commonly on the first two. Now, with this knowledge, put together that the ring SFX has to play over the same channel that a chord is playing in Sky Sanctuary. It has to mute it, obviously, otherwise it couldn't play. Again, this is a limitation of the Mega Drive and nothing else.

This also applies to the system's PSG channels too, as they're also very commonly used in music. You'll not hear them as much in Sonic 3 than the others, but take a listen when Sonic jumps in Green Hill Zone - you'll notice that one of the channels where the square wave chords is muted by Sonic's jump. So "using another channel" wouldn't accomplish anything and it's certainly impossible to add more. Hope this clears things up for you.

[KingofHarts]

Back to a topic that can have a solution... I noticed a couple graphic bugs in Angel Island Zone. In early act 1, when you are walking along the lower path near the first Special stage ring, the rings (the regular ones, that is) are drawn over the foreground plants... you know, those plants that are supposed to appear over everything else...

This also happens with the machine that ignites AIZ into flames. If you lose rings against him, and the rings are visible when the wall of fire goes up, the rings are drawn over the fire... they shouldn't be. (And anyone who says that it's supposed to make it easier... I say gimme a goddamned break. If you are that bad to get hurt by that thing, you deserve to lose your rings. Besides, if you were in the midst of a wildfire, could you see everything around you? Of course not)

A couple small graphical nitpicks that I wanted to point out. I''ll see if I spot more small bugs like this.

[flamewing]

Tiddles: since I know you are using (or going to use) my driver, you can mitigate the ring issue in SSZ like this: open up SSZ.asm in the music folder and change this:

	smpsHeaderDAC   	Snd_SSZ_DAC
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM1,	$E8, $0D
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM2,	$00, $17
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM3,	$00, $17
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM4,	$00, $1C
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM5,	$00, $15
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG1,	$F4, $05, $00, $00
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG2,	$F4, $05, $00, $00
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG3,	$00, $02, $00, $00

to this:

	smpsHeaderDAC   	Snd_SSZ_DAC
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM4,	$00, $1C
 	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM5,	$00, $15
 	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM1,	$E8, $0D
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM2,	$00, $17
	smpsHeaderFM    	Snd_SSZ_FM3,	$00, $17
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG1,	$F4, $05, $00, $00
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG2,	$F4, $05, $00, $00
	smpsHeaderPSG   	Snd_SSZ_PSG3,	$00, $02, $00, $00

FM channels 2 and 3 are barely audible in the middle of the song; moving them up so they become channels 4 and 5 like that cause them to be overridden by the ring sound instead. There may be some other sound that overrides the main chords, but I haven't checked.

Edit: I just tried all SFX, and none of them override the main chords of SSZ in the new configuration; this means it is basically fixed by the above.

This post has been edited by flamewing: 24 March 2012 - 11:02 AM

[Tiddles]

There's a new mini update 120324 on the Wiki page and site. How "mini" it is depends on what patch options you use.

Bugfixes over previous S3C versions

• Sonic 1 Sonic would sometimes disappear after collecting an air bubble. This has been fixed.
  
• Knuckles' penultimate MGZ2 restart point in the S3 layouts now allows him to continue normally.
  
• When quitting one game and starting another, the demo sequence will now be correct.
  
• The green line under Sonic's feet in the ending has been removed.

Additions and changes to patch options

• Numerous enhancements to Sonic 1 and Sonic 2-style sprites from That One Jig. In particular, the Sonic 1 sprites are now significantly more faithful due to changes in eye shape and shading, and Tails' semi-run now matches Sonic 2 better.
  
• The classic sprite options now cause the HCZ background statues and Knuckles' signpost to change.
  
• New options are available to change Sonic's palette to resemble Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 more closely. Thanks to Neo for creating the palettes.
  
• The classic shields patch has been split: there is now a version with Sonic 1-style graphics as well as the Sonic 2 version.

I didn't see the SSZ fix before I built the release, but I made an IPS patch you can try (compatible only with 120304 and 120324). The next release may well use this permanently, but I'm a little concerned by what the post-boss teleporters are doing to the music's intro at the moment. Interestingly, the original Sonic 3 version of that music has another different channel arrangement. I don't know if that mitigates this issue, but I do remember that it makes the intro with the Death Egg rising sound like a bit of a disaster.

(FWIW, I currently use the ASM'd music with a slightly bodged around regular S&K driver; hopefully I will fully migrate to the upgraded version in the next release cycle.)

Now let's respond to some other stuff!

Suggestions are welcome, as long as folks remember I won't necessary implement them. Sometimes, months down the line, people remember these pages of discussion, but not that I never agreed to them.

I don't intend to add Knuckles+Tails. Making that function reasonably is way too much work for a patch option that doesn't make any storyline sense and would allow you to break the levels without a lot of work. Customizable has a partial implementation, though; you could try that.

On the level order, let's make things simple: the order, whatever it is, remains the same between all characters. Surely the CNZ teleporter leading to FBZ makes more sense anyway! It always seemed to me that this was probably the intention. My faith in that was, admittedly, shaken a little when I noticed that original Sonic 3 ICZ loads teleporter art into VRAM, but what of it? Who's to say they didn't take care of moving the teleporter at the same time as they unhooked FBZ from its old slot? I'm also not sure why the Flying Battery flying again in Knuckles' story is such a stretch: all the other machines short of Death Egg seem to have been repaired or reconstructed, after all.

The point that the FBZ order is going back to a discarded beta configuration is well taken. On the other hand, you could argue that Sonic 3 is an unfinished beta of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and that by favouring that version I'm already beta-fying things. I wouldn't be considering doing it at all if it were not so well documented that this was the intended level order, and if it were not so widely requested.

This is a promise: you will always be able to play FBZ in its release order with no notable changes. The rest of it will depend on how things go. I won't do anything too crazy to the default build, or in general; please have faith in that.

I do ultimately want to give Knuckles his moves in Competition mode, but it might not happen any time soon. The whole physics could really do with tweaking so it doesn't feel so weird, but we'll see. My issue with the existing Knuckles 2P sprites is what's missing, particularly climing over ledge and sliding on floor animations. I think some additional sprite work is needed to make it work well.

The same story applies as always does regarding PC music: if someone wants to build high quality S3K SMPS music for those tracks, I will include it. I'm not a musician so I can't do that myself. I may consider an an alternative Super theme.

I will try to do something about the rogue switch leaving Knuckles' area of LBZ2 for a future release.

This post has been edited by Tiddles: 24 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

[Knucklez]

Thanks a lot for that flamewing, and I'm glad you resolved the things I've mentioned Tiddles. You have my utmost respect for that.

The SSZ channels patch worked exactly like I hoped it would. The Death Egg's rising sound was a tad bit louder when I really listened in on it but nothing too serious.

[Neo]

Hahaha, you even tweaked Sonic's colors in the Special Stage :D

Good work, man. Good work.


EDIT: I like how if you switch over to Sonic 1/2 shields/movesets, Tails goes from Easy mode to Hard. Fun stuff.

This post has been edited by Neo: 24 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

[Knucklez]

When I play as Sonic & Tails combo, I can't help but wonder why the life counter HUD just has Sonic's name, as opposed to a more sensible S & T or S-&-T. I mean I know how Tails has infinite lives cause he dies every other second, but it would make more sense.

Knuckles' life counter goes by K-T-E, so it would fit perfectly. So could you make a patch or full implementation of their HUD having both of their initials? As for the character picture in the HUD, maybe someone could draw a new one with Sonic & Tails in it, somehow.



I mean Tails deserves to feel included, right..?

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 19 April 2012 - 04:28 PM

[That One Jig]

Wow, I'm surprised how very different Sonic feels when using the different palettes. Nice job, Neo!

And congrats on the minor release, Tiddles! Even these tiny changes really add up in the end to make Sonic 3 just that much better.

Oh, and I tried out the SSZ fix. It works great, I can't immediately notice any downside to using this channel arrangement as default.

This post has been edited by That One Jig: 24 March 2012 - 08:48 PM

[Effexor]

Effexor, on 15 March 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Speaking of colors, is it possible to make Robotnik in Sonic's Hidden Palace not cause everything to flash white when you hit him?

IS there a chance of fixing this? It's one of those things that's bugged me ever since I first played this game so many years ago.

[Knucklez]

Knucklez, on 24 March 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When I play as Sonic & Tails combo, I can't help but wonder why the life counter HUD just has Sonic's name, as opposed to a more sensible S & T or S-&-T. I mean I know how Tails has infinite lives cause he dies every other second, but it would make more sense.

Knuckles' life counter goes by K-T-E, so it would fit perfectly. So could you make a patch or full implementation of their HUD having both of their initials? As for the character picture in the HUD, maybe someone could draw a new one with Sonic & Tails in it, somehow.

On the second thought, scratch this. It's actually a bad idea. It's not like you can alternate between the two characters like in Heroes, it's really just Sonic with Tails by his side for show. The HUD actually makes sense the way it is, just as it did in Sonic 2 when the duo was introduced.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 19 April 2012 - 04:28 PM

[KingofHarts]

Knucklez, on 25 March 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Knucklez, on 24 March 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When I play as Sonic & Tails combo, I can't help but wonder why the life counter HUD just has Sonic's name, as opposed to a more sensible S & T or S-&-T. I mean I know how Tails has infinite lives cause he dies every other second, but it would make more sense.

Knuckles' life counter goes by K-T-E, so it would fit perfectly. So could you make a patch or full implementation of their HUD having both of their initials? As for the character picture in the HUD, maybe someone could draw a new one with Sonic & Tails in it, somehow.

On the second thought, scratch this. It's actually a bad idea. It's not like you can alternate between the two characters like in Heroes, it's really just Sonic with Tails by his side for show. The HUD actually makes sense the way it is, just as it did in Sonic 2 when the duo was introduced.

It would only make sense if the game was played in a real Co-Op style mode, where the two characters played equally and pooled lives. That said, I'd love to see that... somehow.

[Machenstein]

Beating Sonic 3 Complete again for the umpteenth time, I can't help but think how little sense it makes for Tails to stay with Sonic throughout Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg Zone. If Tails is with Sonic on the Death Egg when it is destroyed, and Sonic leaves Tails behind on the Death Egg to pursue Eggman in Doomsday Zone, how does Tails get back to the Tornado to catch Sonic during the ending? I know Sonic game aren't exactly known for making sense, but I wonder if this hack could somehow address this plot-hole.

Here's what I'm thinking. During the cut-scene leading to Sky Sanctuary, have Tails stay behind in Hidden Palace Zone so that he could have enough time to get to the Tornado. Then, for Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg Zone, have Knuckles be Sonic's co-op partner for the rest of the game. The ending would depict it so that Tails had already caught Knuckles when the Death Egg was destroyed, making it so that Sonic and Knuckles are both riding on the Tornado.

[Josh]

Machenstein, on 28 March 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Here's what I'm thinking. During the cut-scene leading to Sky Sanctuary, have Tails stay behind in Hidden Palace Zone so that he could have enough time to get to the Tornado. Then, for Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg Zone, have Knuckles be Sonic's co-op partner for the rest of the game. The ending would depict it so that Tails had already caught Knuckles when the Death Egg was destroyed, making it so that Sonic and Knuckles are both riding on the Tornado.

MARRY ME.

*Ahem* But seriously. That would be awesome to see, and would really address the whole "three player characters" aspect of the game. It'd even get me to play through with Sonic & Tails together for the first time in years.

[KingofHarts]

I like your idea, up until the Knuckles co-op part... Just my 2 cents, I'm with leaving Tails behind at HPZ and Knuckles at the start of SSZ. But you make a great point on the plot hole part. What exploits that plothole even more is if you don't access Doomsday after the Death Egg... Then how do you explain Tails and the Tornado?