[OSM]

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/column...play_i.php#more
Nice article, was quite a good read. I'm sure you guys will like this.

This post has been edited by OSM: 12 January 2010 - 05:29 PM

[Mobiethian]

You're right, that is very interesting. Still reading...

[DimensionWarped]

Interesting. Completely and utterly wrong. But interesting. Likening the movement in Prototype as a modern take on Sonic style movement (which is heavily based on the precise interactions of the player as opposed to what prototype is... something that completely autopilots every jump, wall climb, and everything else.... it's just stupid.

This post has been edited by DimensionWarped: 12 January 2010 - 05:42 PM

[RedStripedShoes]

Interesting. Completely and utterly wrong. But interesting. Likening the movement in Prototype as a modern take on Sonic style movement (which is heavily based on the precise interactions of the player as opposed to what prototype is... something that completely autopilots every jump, wall climb, and everything else.... it's just stupid.

But surely you agree on his point that the mere presence of multiple paths with little variation on reward made the original games better than today's games, right?

[Phos]

Interesting. Completely and utterly wrong. But interesting. Likening the movement in Prototype as a modern take on Sonic style movement (which is heavily based on the precise interactions of the player as opposed to what prototype is... something that completely autopilots every jump, wall climb, and everything else.... it's just stupid.

Not completely wrong - The bit about the alternate paths existing more as a punishment than as a valid choice is spot on, a complaint I've had for a while. I really liked Sonic's pushing animation in Unleashed... Too bad it existed as a punishment for not reading the designer's mind.

I'd also say that calling Sonic "precise" is inaccurate, the old games had large margins for error for just abut everything.

[DimensionWarped]

Have either of you played Prototype? Alternate paths are almost irrelevant.

Also, on the topic of precision in Sonic, I wasn't talking about your need for placement, I was talking about your control over the character. But I'll bite anyway. Floating platforms typically three character lengths across. Holes for entry into secret walk ways only slightly taller than the collision box of the character while jumping. Bouncing off enemies placed precariously in midair sending you flying upwards like fucking cat cannon. What am I talking about? Why! It's Emerald Hill Zone!

This post has been edited by DimensionWarped: 12 January 2010 - 06:04 PM

[Kurosan]

I've never played Prototype so I couldn't judge that part, although I'm guessing that the similarities are very vague. Everything else was very nicely said and the Mario vs. Sonic comparison was perfectly spot on though; it's rare to read such a good description of what made a Sonic game, especially when the author claims that speed was a major part of the game.

This post has been edited by Kurosan: 12 January 2010 - 06:30 PM

[Phos]

Have either of you played Prototype? Alternate paths are almost irrelevant.

I wasn't drawing parallels to Prototype.

Also, on the topic of precision in Sonic, I wasn't talking about your need for placement, I was talking about your control over the character. But I'll bite anyway. Floating platforms typically three character lengths across. Holes for entry into secret walk ways only slightly taller than the collision box of the character while jumping. Bouncing off enemies placed precariously in midair sending you flying upwards like fucking cat cannon. What am I talking about? Why! It's Emerald Hill Zone!

It wasn't uncommon to see floating platforms the same size or even smaller than the character in NES days, and they became much more rare on the SNES, Emerlad Hill Zone is the only place to feature hidden paths that are hard to enter if you know they're there, unlike many plat formers, and the entirety of Sonic is able to damage/destroy enemies during the entire time he is in a jump. Most platformers need you to either do an attack or hit them in a specific way.

[Zephyr]

Interesting article, but here I thought Sonic used the concept of high risk, HIGH reward. Oh wait...

[Phos]

Sonic didn't really have that much of a risk/reward system going on in the old days, and it really doesn't need it. That's more the realm of fighting games, really.

[DimensionWarped]

Also, on the topic of precision in Sonic, I wasn't talking about your need for placement, I was talking about your control over the character. But I'll bite anyway. Floating platforms typically three character lengths across. Holes for entry into secret walk ways only slightly taller than the collision box of the character while jumping. Bouncing off enemies placed precariously in midair sending you flying upwards like fucking cat cannon. What am I talking about? Why! It's Emerald Hill Zone!

It wasn't uncommon to see floating platforms the same size or even smaller than the character in NES days, and they became much more rare on the SNES, Emerlad Hill Zone is the only place to feature hidden paths that are hard to enter if you know they're there, unlike many plat formers, and the entirety of Sonic is able to damage/destroy enemies during the entire time he is in a jump. Most platformers need you to either do an attack or hit them in a specific way.

That's relative, I'm talking from an absolute position. Just because something isn't Nintendo hard doesn't mean it lacks precision.

EDIT: And I was talking very specifically about the connections the author tried to make between Sonic and Prototype. They were absolutely ridiculous.

This post has been edited by DimensionWarped: 13 January 2010 - 06:22 AM

[DigitalDuck]

Sonic didn't really have that much of a risk/reward system going on in the old days, and it really doesn't need it. That's more the realm of fighting games, really.

All good, non-linear games have some risk/reward system. There's a hard path there, and an easy path there. Why should I take the hard path when I can take the easy path? Oh, look! There's an extra life on the hard path! I think that reward is worth the extra risk!

I don't see any connection between risk/reward systems and fighting games. Please enlighten me.

[Zephyr]

Sonic didn't really have that much of a risk/reward system going on in the old days, and it really doesn't need it. That's more the realm of fighting games, really.

All good, non-linear games have some risk/reward system. There's a hard path there, and an easy path there. Why should I take the hard path when I can take the easy path? Oh, look! There's an extra life on the hard path! I think that reward is worth the extra risk!

I don't see any connection between risk/reward systems and fighting games. Please enlighten me.

This.

[0r4ng3]

At least in Virtua Fighter, the more difficult the move, the more health it takes, but it's also far more easy to botch them up and leave you open to attacks. Tekken is smash buttons to win, so it doesn't count for this.

This post has been edited by 0r4ng3: 13 January 2010 - 05:50 PM

[BlazeHedgehog]

This article spoke to me in a number of different ways - I haven't played Prototype, but I have played the game the developer made before Prototype, called Hulk: Ultimate Destruction. Prototype is considered the unofficial sequel to Ultimate Destruction, and the two games share a lot of similar concepts regarding character movement (though, judging by reviews, Prototype did not fair as well as Hulk). It did strike me while playing Hulk that a Sonic game that allowed the player that kind of movement would be kind of awesome, because Hulk has a good sense of weight and momentum to him that does not hinder his mobility or agility, but actually enhances it. When I talk about how 3D Sonic games could benefit from a run button, Hulk was probably what put that idea in my head.

But the article is wrong in some other ways, though. It once again operates under the assumption that speed is all Sonic has to offer - that you can't go slow. That going fast is easier than going slow, because the entire game is based around using your momentum to go places. While that's definitely true sometimes, most of the "you have to use your momentum to get up here" moments are strictly for secret areas - for little alcoves with 1ups and the like. Speed is the reward for doing well at the game, but in doing so, you risk a little bit of control over Sonic himself. You could crawl through Green Hill Zone at a snail's pace and avoid the risk, but you'd also be forfeiting the reward, as well.

This post has been edited by BlazeHedgehog: 14 January 2010 - 02:24 PM