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Sonic 3 Complete S&K Collection on MD, with fixes, Sonic 3 music and many options.

#1696 User is offline Josh 

Posted 21 November 2016 - 07:21 PM

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View PostNeo, on 21 November 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

The palette isn't even the problem. Annoying and some color reduction is definitely necessary, but not really a dealbreaker.

It's the sprites themselves that are troublesome, for three disparate reasons. One, there's probably a bunch of poses that S3 needs and Mania doesn't, so someone would have to draw some more colorful mice (no thanks). Two, and this is related to three as well, Sonic Mania has a lot of extra sets of animation, like the walk/run poses are now at least 3 or 4 different cycles, there's a version of the walk cycle used exclusively while falling and probably more stuff I haven't noticed. Worst case, these would just be simplified and omitted where not really necessary.

Reason three however is the devastating blow. Not only does Mania add a lot more cycles, but it adds a lot of distinct frames to each cycle, and we're already up to the 250-ish frame limit of the S3 animation system. We would have to do a signficant overhaul to the code and data structures to add all the extra smoothness, and even then you're still running up against missing S3 poses, a poor color palette, and hey now you just filled half the ROM with uncompressed character sprites. Might as well stick to the mantra of "if it didn't happen before 1994, it didn't happen". (except for mobile remakes ok)

That said, if you can expect anything, then definitely expect some nods to Mania, in perhaps more meaningful ways; I at least will certainly get more inspiration once I've played it.

Thanks for showing interest in the sprite options though, it's an occasionally reviled feature that we (I) have to maintain, so it's good to know some people care about them. I've been toying with some old sprite ideas which have now become tangentially related to Sonic Mania, so feel free to be curious and excited about whatever that means.


Hey, yeah, I too really appreciate all the sprite options! My favorite of all are still the new Super/Hyper sprites, and I hope we see a Sonic 2-style variant eventually!

If you're implying what I _think_ you might be implying, then yes, getting the Drop Dash as an option would be really fun! I couldn't really care less about Mania-style sprites, though. I'm not really a fan of how aqua blue Sonic is there anyway, and there's no real reason to recode S3's structure just for smoother frames.
This post has been edited by Josh: 21 November 2016 - 07:23 PM

#1697 User is online Dark Sonic 

Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:13 AM

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Oh I love the sprite options. Sonic 2 sprite mode is like the only version I play. It's a nice bonus on top of an already lovely package.

I didn't volunteer to make the Japanese box art for nothing :eng101:

And I knew Sonic Mania had more sprites, I was just thinking some would be scrapped if not needed (like some inbetween frames would be scrapped). Mostly I was just hoping the spirit of the sprites were brought over, like end of act poses, the look up pose, Knuckles' new face (as those sprites work better with the Sonic 1/2 set than his Sonic 3 sprites do), Tails new flying sprites, those sorts of things, and then the rest could just use modified Sonic 1/2/3 animations.

Hmm maybe I could even do that once the game comes out.
This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 22 November 2016 - 09:15 AM

#1698 User is offline LordOfSquad 

Posted 22 November 2016 - 10:33 AM

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I'm on Team Sonic 2 sprites too. Your hard work isn't in vain!

#1699 User is offline kazblox 

Posted 26 November 2016 - 08:56 PM

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View PostICEknight, on 07 November 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

View PostTheInvisibleSun, on 07 November 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Bug or not, I really did enjoy Big Arms' ability to knock the rings out of Super Sonic though.

But nothing suggests that it was a bug... right?

Nah, they just forgot to add a check. In S&K, there's a check to see if you are invincible before the "movea.l" line, which just jumps to loc_7468C if you meet that requirement.

Here's the routine in Sonic 3 by itself:
Posted Image
This post has been edited by kazblox: 26 November 2016 - 09:01 PM

#1700 User is offline Sid Starkiller 

Posted 01 December 2016 - 03:00 PM

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Had some thoughts on possible minor tweaks:

1 - In Sonic 2's Sonic & Tails mode, Tails leaves for plot reasons near the end, leaving Sonic by himself for Wing Fortress and Death Egg. Should something similar be implemented here? Maybe after beating Mecha Sonic, Tails stays behind to prep the Tornado while Sonic traverses the Death Egg?

2 - I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard this: SOME Sonic fansite states (or used to) that in Hidden Palace, standing on an empty Emerald shrine will take you to the corresponding Sonic 3 special stage, and upon winning gives a grayed-out Super Emerald instead of that Chaos Emerald. I've tested, and it doesn't, but should it?

#1701 User is offline OcelotBot 

Posted 01 December 2016 - 04:01 PM

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Adding the Drop Dash would definitely be fun to play around with. I tried the "Sonic 1 Sonic Mania" hack which has the Drop Dash and it seemed to work well.

I also think adding the Sonic 2 beta running animation would look really cool.

View Postkazblox, on 26 November 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

View PostICEknight, on 07 November 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

View PostTheInvisibleSun, on 07 November 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Bug or not, I really did enjoy Big Arms' ability to knock the rings out of Super Sonic though.

But nothing suggests that it was a bug... right?

Nah, they just forgot to add a check. In S&K, there's a check to see if you are invincible before the "movea.l" line, which just jumps to loc_7468C if you meet that requirement.

Here's the routine in Sonic 3 by itself:
Posted Image


Even if Big-Arm was never meant to be able to damage/take away Super Sonic, one of the best things about Big-Arm was that it could take away Super Sonic. It meant that for once you weren't completely safe with Super Sonic, which added to the amazing tension that fight brings.

So yeah, I think it would be neat if there was at least an option in the customiser (if there isn't already) where you could choose to allow Big-Arm to be able to damage Super Sonic. Just a thought...

3 Complete is by far the best version of 3&K. Keep up the great work guys.

I was playing 3C on my phone a few days ago and I glitched into Sonic & Tails route whilst playing as Knuckles (which he can't normally access) in act2 of Launch Base. So I thought I'd record it:

https://youtu.be/yPPMQdTHQkw
This post has been edited by OcelotBot: 01 December 2016 - 04:49 PM

#1702 User is offline muteKi 

Posted 14 December 2016 - 03:03 AM

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View PostSid Starkiller, on 01 December 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

1 - In Sonic 2's Sonic & Tails mode, Tails leaves for plot reasons near the end, leaving Sonic by himself for Wing Fortress and Death Egg. Should something similar be implemented here? Maybe after beating Mecha Sonic, Tails stays behind to prep the Tornado while Sonic traverses the Death Egg?




See, I'd like almost the exact opposite feature -- I'd like an option somewhere to let Tails show up on the LBZ fight even if I don't have a second controller to press the buttons for

#1703 User is offline Techokami 

Posted 25 December 2016 - 07:50 PM

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Using the Sonic 1 sprites modification, skidding on the spinning top gimmick in Marble Garden Zone causes Sonic to skid indefinitely, until the original direction is pressed or you jump:
Posted Image
I'd have to make a video to show it better, though.

#1704 User is offline Neo 

Posted 26 December 2016 - 09:51 AM

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That is by design. The skidding aninmation in S1/SCD loops, you can get into an even sillier state in Scrap Brain 2's conveyor wheels, for instance.

What isn't by design is the endless stream of smoke objects, which didn't exist in the original games. The mobile ports IIRC fixed this by changing the animation so it's non-looping, but that rubs me the wrong way, so I fixed it differently.

#1705 User is offline ApocalypticSalad 

Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:58 AM

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Back in November, Neo tweeted regarding a new S3C update:

Quote

Do you think I DON'T want to put my several months' hard work out there for people to play with? I'll bug Tiddles about it.

Any news on that front? I'm curious to see all the progress that's been made over the last three and a half years.

I ran into the bug where Knuckles (while gliding) and Tails (while flying) can get underneath the rising sand in Sandopolis 2 completely by accident while playing today, which made me curious to know if that's been fixed in the S3C dev builds. It's fun being under the sand, but it makes it a little hard to see where you're going...

Edit: Another bug from vanilla S3K that I ran into in Complete. These spikes hurt you when you run into them from the left in the indicated spots. Is this fixed in S3C dev builds?

Edit 2: More spike issues, this time in Carnival Night. I've put red circles around spikes that retract into the roof but still hurt you. Act 1. Act 2. (Blue circles are ones that I tested and are fine. It also turns out Zone: 0 is missing one!)
This post has been edited by ApocalypticSalad: 24 March 2017 - 11:56 PM

#1706 User is offline King 

Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:55 AM

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Since this topic was bumped, I've had a couple thoughts.

- Why doesn't Super Tails have the ability to fly/swim for an infinite amount of time? He still gets tired, which is odd considering he has the Super Emeralds.

- Speaking of Super Tails, why can't he survive underwater indefinitely whereas Hyper Sonic/Knuckles can (e.g. like having water shield)?

The likely answer for the above two (especially the second) is likely because Tails is in a Super form, and doesn't have a Hyper form, which is to be expected. Still, he could at least fly and swim indefinitely.

- Is it possible we'll ever see the ability to switch between Super Sonic/Knuckles and Hyper Sonic/Knuckles transformations, perhaps via different button combos or do the two button transformation combo a second time (going from base > Super > Hyper > base), assuming all Super Emeralds are collected? Personally, I like using only the character's Super form until I actually need to use their Hyper forum for whatever reason. I tend to think of the Super and Hyper transformations as being exactly like Super Sayian 1 and Super Sayian 2. It'd just be neat to only go to the next level if we need to.
This post has been edited by King: 18 March 2017 - 10:12 AM

#1707 User is offline DigitalDuck 

Posted 18 March 2017 - 10:54 AM

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View PostKing, on 18 March 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

- Why doesn't Super Tails have the ability to fly/swim for an infinite amount of time? He still gets tired, which is odd considering he has the Super Emeralds.

- Is it possible we'll ever see the ability to switch between Super Sonic/Knuckles and Hyper Sonic/Knuckles transformations, perhaps via different button combos or do the two button transformation combo a second time (going from base > Super > Hyper > base), assuming all Super Emeralds are collected? Personally, I like using only the character's Super form until I actually need to use their Hyper forum for whatever reason. I tend to think of the Super and Hyper transformations as being exactly like Super Sayian 1 and Super Sayian 2. It'd just be neat to only go to the next level if we need to.


Both of these are not really suited for S3C (being more of an enhanced version than anything else) but I have to say I like the thinking behind it. Infinite flight makes sense, and having Hyper form being an additional transformation on top of Super form is a good idea conceptually, although practically useless in terms of gameplay, as Hyper Sonic is everything Super Sonic is and more; you'd have to balance it out by maybe doubling Hyper Sonic's ring consumption to have a gameplay reason to continue to use Super Sonic.

#1708 User is online Brainulator 

Posted 20 March 2017 - 05:46 PM

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I'm actually more curious as to why Super Tails can't automatically break non-Knuckles barriers, and that's ignoring how the mobile ports of Sonic 1 and 2 give Super Tails a higher jump too.

#1709 User is offline MastaSys 

Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:31 AM

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Well, i hope I'm not being rude for asking this after so many years, but I'm curious after so much time.
Is this idea still on the table?

View PostTiddles, on 18 August 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

View PostMastaSys, on 11 July 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

Just a little sugestion.

Since there is an option for the classic themes, how about an option to make the 1st and 2nd Sky Sanctuary bosses play their original boss theme from Sonic 1 & 2 to complete the throwback?
It worked well in Sonic Advance.
Might do an option for this at some point, yeah - would be a nice bit of nostalgia.


#1710 User is online Brainulator 

Posted 04 April 2017 - 05:16 PM

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View PostNeo, on 26 December 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

That is by design. The skidding aninmation in S1/SCD loops, you can get into an even sillier state in Scrap Brain 2's conveyor wheels, for instance.

What isn't by design is the endless stream of smoke objects, which didn't exist in the original games. The mobile ports IIRC fixed this by changing the animation so it's non-looping, but that rubs me the wrong way, so I fixed it differently.
Now I'm curious: are you saying that they made the smoke non-looping or the skidding animation non-looping? In the mobile ports, I think the skidding loops but the smoke doesn't.

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