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Why I Don't Like Sonic Games

#31 User is offline Palas 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 09:45 AM

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View PostLaura, on 04 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Another inspiring post by Palas! I hope you stay around :specialed:/>/>/>

I guess he thinks gameplay is fundamentally just playing the game and has nothing to do with the other aspects of the experience.


That would be to propose playing a game is a logical, algorithmical process rather than a cognitive/emotional/physical one. Which is absurd. People like things for different reasons. Enjoying the presentation, music, characters and the hard-to-describe feeling of going through loops are reasons to like a game, as a game, just as valid as liking the rules of it or whatever you could (wrongly) describe as "pure gameplay".

So there, if one likes Sonic, they do like Sonic. You don't have to play it till the end, or in the - supposedly - intended way, to like it.
This post has been edited by Palas: 04 January 2019 - 09:47 AM

#32 User is offline The Negative Ion 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:44 AM

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Hey guys. I meant to post last night, but for some weird reason, I got knocked offline and I couldn't reconnect so I don't know if any more posts have come in since. But regardless, I never thought I'd get this much attention from any corner from the Sonic community, let alone this one! Thank you guys so much for giving my video the time of day, regardless if you liked it or not. I just figured a video like this just needed to exist and I'm glad that it's getting some kind of traction.
I'll try to address all of your replies at the time of this writing as best as I can so we can talk. (Except for The Game Critique; I'll just reply to his YouTube comment later on if it's convenient for him)

View Postbiggestsonicfan, on 03 January 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Haven't enjoyed the series since Black Knight. I can't even enjoy older titles anymore. I just feel obligated at this point.

Well that's unfortunate that you're in the same boat as me; I just fell in at a later time. But I'm hopeful that we'll both get back into Sonic games one day.


View PostLaughingcow, on 03 January 2019 - 12:08 PM, said:

Oh great one of these videos. No, a game doesn't magically become bad when they get old. You are the one who changed. It doesn't get any deeper than that.

It's just like this video where someone tries to convince people that Sonic was just some scam.

I'm not going to waste much time on this. If you aren't having fun then simply move on to something else.

While I agree on the first two points that you made, I do believe that my disliking of the franchise goes deeper than age itself. I think the fact that I made a near hour long video expressing my discontent with the franchise is proof of that.
Y' know, it's funny that you reference that video. I do agree with a handful of points that those guys made, but I almost lost it when they said that Sonic games couldn't be as bad as the Crash Bandicoot games. I was all like "You take that back right the hell now, you... you... person!" lol yeah; That's immature of me, I know. I think they said about Sonic is that speed was used mainly as a marketing tool to sell Genesis units and I do believe that's true to a degree, but I hadn't seen the video in a while, so I could just be remembering things wrong. I'll prolly look at it again at a later date.
Now to your last point. I think it's good to take a break from Sonic games from time to time to help clear your head so you can go back in with a fresh mind. It's just that I've already been doing that a handful of times with no change in opinion. Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games on my break? I dunno, what do you think? What games would you recommend I follow up with after playing something like Sonic 3 for a while?


View PostAshura96, on 03 January 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

Man and here I thought Sonic Mania's rave reviews had all these types go away.

Could you clarify what you mean by "types?" It could really refer to anything, whether it be fans, haters, people who are neutral to the series, etc.. It's just that you got me curious when you mentioned that Sonic Mania had reduced its quantity. Sorry for asking if it would be too much trouble for you.


View PostHEDGESMFG, on 03 January 2019 - 01:51 PM, said:

Good for you.

I still think the momentum based gameplay engines of the genesis are some of the best 2D engines ever made, with clear rewards for skill and mastery of the system. Also a technical marvel for their age.

Sucks to be you if you don't think so.

While I do agree that the Genesis was ahead of it's time, I don't know if I would say it's the best. As for the rewards being clear, it really depends on the game... and the rewards themselves for that matter. But it's like I said, anything can be considered a reward to some degree, really, so I can't really pick out a favorite gameplay engine myself. But to each his own, I guess.

"Sucks to be you if you don't think so."
Well, that's not very nice...


View PostHez, on 03 January 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

It's called getting older. I also don't like ball pits as much as I did as a kid.

Like I said to Laughingcow, I don't think age is what happened. While it's true that people get wiser as they grow older, I think people can use that newfound knowledge to have fun with Sonic games. I just haven't really found that knowledge yet. I'm not so sure about how the ball pit metaphor connects, but if you'd like to explain your stance, I'm all ears... er, eyes.
Regardless, I do still hope that you and I can get back into liking Sonic games again.


View PostZephyr, on 03 January 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

did you actually join a sonic forum just to pimp your video about why you don't like sonic

lol. "pimp." I see what you did there. But yeah, guilty as charged for the most part. I also joined because I wanted to see if anyone here was willing to have a discussion with someone with an opposing viewpoint. I just figured that a website that focuses primarily around Sonic games would be the best place to find civil dialogue. I could be wrong, though. It could only be a good place. lol


View PostAerosol, on 03 January 2019 - 02:44 PM, said:

Holy shit this is fantastic.

Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it.


View PostRavenfreak, on 03 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

Okay cool, you don't like Sonic that's fine. It's your opinion, but uh why did you join a Sonic community? I mean I don't like Harvest Moon, so I'm not going to waste my time joining a fan forum to state why I don't like the games.

See my reply to Zephyr. In addition, I think people with opposing viewpoints can still join a community revolving around it as long as you're both willing to discuss it. I say no harm, no fowl. You both might even learn something new from the disagreement. Crazy how that works, huh?


View PostYash, on 03 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

Ok?

I'm really curious what it is about Sonic that makes people feel the need to share this in the most obnoxious way possible, like everyone who still enjoys the games is just a cheap mark who was somehow tricked into thinking the games were good.

I played some of the original Sonic Adventure (which we are all aware has not aged particularly well) the other day and still had a blast with it, I'm sorry the series has lost that spark for you.

Well, I don't really know much about the Sonic community, so I can't really comment on that. But I do find it particularly interesting that you liked a game that you know hasn't aged well. I'm sure the reason goes beyond just nostalgia. I mean I played Sonic 3 when I was a kid, but look at what I think of it now. Maybe I'm just unlucky with how my brain is hardwired or something? lol, I dunno.
Also, I don't think the series had lost that spark for me as much as I think that it just needs a reigniting. I'm sure the spark is still there somewhere because I wouldn't have made this video otherwise. Don't worry, I still have hope.


View Post360, on 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yeah I think this is just getting older also. I still enjoy video games and Sonic games included but no way near as much as in my youth when video games were these beautiful fantastical experiences of which nothing else came close. Also to echo everyone else there doesn't seem much point in you being here if you don't like the games this forum revolves around? Overlord is also going to trash this as soon as he sees it. So you may want to try to positively contribute with your remaining trial posts if you want to stay. That's just friendly advice. No negative sentiment intended.

Yeah, it's kind of a shame that we don't see a lot of people coming up with valid reasons to dislike the franchise. But here's a good mindfuck for you: Egoraptor likes Sonic 3... crazy, isn't it?
Yeah, back in the old days, video games were less about art and more about... well... f'n video games! They're supposed to offer a unique experience in the entertainment medium that movies and books simply can't. Nowadays, if The Game Awards 2018 is anything to go off of, they've become just a more complicated way to watch TV. That's why I put most of my faith in indie games now. At least they can afford to take risks.
As for the reason I'm here, sure, maybe seeking discussion with unlike-minded individuals isn't a major reason, but I was validated, so maybe the SonicRetro guys saw something that I could offer? I don't see why this Overlord person would trash this post. I mean I think I'm making a fairly positive contribution by offering an opposing viewpoint along with an invitation to civil discussion. That's what I posted in my validation post and that's what put me on here. Thanks for the advice, regardless.


View PostYeow, on 03 January 2019 - 06:34 PM, said:

iknorite

It's gonna be fun to see if the OP even returns to this forum to begin with, let alone acknowledge the big elephant in the room they just conjured up.

I would further elaborate, but the thread's got twelve replies already (including me) and I don't think I need to feed it any further.

Sorry, the only OP I'm familiar with is "Over-Powered." I'm still new to this site. But regardless, you don't have to say anymore if you don't feel confident in doing so. I've been there before so I understand.


View Poststeveswede, on 03 January 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

This OP thread is epic, also makes me nostalgic for the frequent shit posts we used to have. :P

Wow, those must've been the days, huh? I wish I could've been there to see it. When we were young, we've had our stupid little fun. But all things must come to an end whether it be for better or worse.


Well I suppose that it for now. Sorry if I'm not all that great at talking to people, but I'll check back here later to see if I get anymore replies. Man, I was so nervous to see where this would go and I think I still might be, to be honest.

#33 User is offline XRick 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:54 AM

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OP stands, in this case, to Original Post, the one you started this thread with.

#34 User is offline Nicky Ali 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:12 AM

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I haven't watched your full video yet, but I'm a decent ways in. Honestly, what you say about wishing the field of view was scaled back so you could get a wider look at the map is something I've thought that 2D Sonic games could really benefit from for a while. That, coupled with enemies and stage hazards that are telegraphed effectively could really help with the whole "I don't have enough time to react to what's coming ahead of me" thing.

#35 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:24 AM

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View PostThe Negative Ion, on 04 January 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

While I agree on the first two points that you made, I do believe that my disliking of the franchise goes deeper than age itself. I think the fact that I made a near hour long video expressing my discontent with the franchise is proof of that.

Nope. When people are angry or sad they tend to say a lot on that emotional impulse. That's why internet videos where a guy complains about a thing are a mainstay of Youtube having shot people who honestly don't know much about what they're talking about to fame. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect and makes for decent entertainment but ultimately lacks in actual merit. A youtuber known as "Third Rate Gamer" satirized this type of thing quite well.

Quote

Y' know, it's funny that you reference that video. I do agree with a handful of points that those guys made, but I almost lost it when they said that Sonic games couldn't be as bad as the Crash Bandicoot games. I was all like "You take that back right the hell now, you... you... person!" lol yeah; That's immature of me, I know. I think they said about Sonic is that speed was used mainly as a marketing tool to sell Genesis units and I do believe that's true to a degree, but I hadn't seen the video in a while, so I could just be remembering things wrong. I'll prolly look at it again at a later date.
They don't have points. Not every piece of media appeals to every person whether it be a game, book, movie, etc. A single person or even a group of people not liking Sonic is not an objective meter of the game by any stretch of the imagination. The closest you could get to that is SALES and that's only because of the simple fact that people are putting their money where there mouths are.

If I sound combative, that's because I was a playtester for a very special game that many many many many many people said shouldn't exist because insert reason here.
https://store.steamp.../341940/Hatred/
It didn't matter that some people wanted me and the dev team dead (not a joke, got death threats and doxes over this), it didn't matter how many hit pieces got written or the bad reviews from game bloggers, what mattered was people who liked the game bought it (this was post steam refunds mind you) and in a high enough volume that the development team continues to this day (having recently released an RTS called Ancestors). It's why I take random criticism with a grain of salt. In order for criticism to be of any merit, it has to come either from the target audience or from someone who can put his own feelings aside to see things in an objective (or as close to it as possible) light.

Quote

Now to your last point. I think it's good to take a break from Sonic games from time to time to help clear your head so you can go back in with a fresh mind. It's just that I've already been doing that a handful of times with no change in opinion. Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games on my break? I dunno, what do you think? What games would you recommend I follow up with after playing something like Sonic 3 for a while?
If you don't know what kind of game you wish to play then you've got some introspection issues. Not every game is made for every gamer which is why you should already know what kind of games you like. That said, if you just want a game where you don't have to give a shit, pick up POSTAL 2. If you have a Switch, Xenoblade 2 and/or it's expansion Torna: The Golden Country. Octopath Traveller and ofcourse, Crash Bandicoot NSane Trilogy.
This post has been edited by Laughingcow: 04 January 2019 - 11:25 AM

#36 User is offline The Negative Ion 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:02 PM

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Oh my goodness! So many more posts since last night I can barely keep up! Well I don't think I'll be able to reply to everyone this time, but I do wanna make a few things clear if they weren't already in the video. I had originally posted here on a Sonic forum because I legitimately wanted to have a discussion with individuals who had a different opinion from me. I don't really believe in games being of objective quality. If that were true, I think life would be pretty fucking boring. I think it's okay for one to dislike something that universally liked by many others; that's what makes them interesting. I think just me being here is proof of that. I always try to look for disagreements because I think that's the best way to learn new things. Too many agreements could end up putting me in my own echo chamber and I want to prevent that. The scary thing about that is that you don't even know that you're in one when you're in one. To me, disagreements are the needles that deflate that balloon. That's why I'm here.

View PostPalas, on 04 January 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

I hve only one question.

Why would you think things that are intrinsic parts of a game would have nothing to do with "actually playing" the game? What does it mean to "actually play" the game, if not to... play it, whole package included?

Well, games have objectives. The purpose of a game, video or not, is to meet that objective. The way that you do so is what I mean by actually playing the game. Overcoming the challenges set forth makes me feel like I accomplished something and I feel as if I've become better at what I do. Once that happens, then you can set personal challenges just because you want to because you enjoyed yourself the first time. Unfortunately, that's not the case with me and Sonic games. I didn't feel any sense of challenge playing Sonic 3 and so I couldn't really enjoy it. Everything else like the music, graphics, whatever, all that stuff is great. But it's all stuff that you can just look at a YouTube video for. As I told someone else here, video games offer a unique experience in the entertainment medium that simply can't be replicated in movies and books. The one thing that makes it unique is... well, player interaction. That's why I hold Sonic games to a different standard than Sonic comics or Sonic... dare I say it... movies. I mean games can still have their edgy characters and dark stories and cheesy one-liners if they want, that's fine. But to me, the objective and the means of reaching it is what matters most to me. That's what I mean by actually playing the game. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in the video.

View PostLaura, on 04 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

I guess he thinks gameplay is fundamentally just playing the game and has nothing to do with the other aspects of the experience.

I think you might've misunderstood what I said at that 15-minute mark. What I said was if the gameplay falls flat and if the game itself isn't fun to play, then everything else doesn't matter. I didn't necessarily say that everything else didn't matter, period. If that were the case, I think people would still be playing Marvel Vs. Capcom Infinite at EVO. Sorry if I didn't put enough emphasis on that. But anyway, I'm glad you thought the video was good. I didn't really make it for anyone to agree with it, but that's what makes conversations interesting.

Also, sorry if it's taking me longer than you guys are comfortable with because like I said, I'm just really friggin' nervous not just to see what everyone would say, but also how to respond. I'm just really bad at PR, but I want to get better. That's another reason I'm doing this. But again, thanks for all the comment-- er... posts, I guess. I really appreciate it.

Oh, and thanks, xRick. OP = Original Post, got it.

#37 User is offline Frostav 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:00 PM

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View PostYash, on 03 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm really curious what it is about Sonic that makes people feel the need to share this in the most obnoxious way possible, like everyone who still enjoys the games is just a cheap mark who was somehow tricked into thinking the games were good.



Two things:

First of all, as TCG remarked in his retrospective, for a lot of younger gamers, Sonic is not a famous platforming video games from the 90's. It's Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom--a bizarre clusterfuck of a shitty series that is only liked by out-of-touch boomers and weird furries drawing weird fetish porn.

However, despite this, Sonic has a massive and loyal fanbase. His games keep selling (even if the sales are finally starting to slow). He has a bunch of older fans like us who talk about his glory days. For a supposedly shitty series, Sonic doesn't die. So these younger fans, who only know Sonic from Let's Plays/shitty Youtube analyses of bad Sonic games (and horribly-played let's plays of the actually good ones), go back and check out the originals. And Sonic, for someone raised on Mario-derived platformers (AKA "literally every other platformer in existence besides Sonic), is extremely weird. We don't mind because we know and like Sonic's inertia and weight, and kids in the 90's were young and willing to try new things.

These people don't know any framework of judging a platformer besides "how Mario-like is this" and Sonic "fails" such a standard, so they skip over the logical conclusion--"Sonic is a different kind of platformer and requires you to play it differently"--and fly straight to the utterly illogical one of "SONIC WAS NEVER GOOD AND IT'S CHEAP AND HARD AND IT'S NOT LIKE MARIO* AND THAT'S BAD".

*:they never actually state this, but it's clear it's what they actually believe underneath all the superfluous verbiage
This post has been edited by Frostav: 04 January 2019 - 01:03 PM

#38 User is offline Palas 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:18 PM

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View PostFrostav, on 04 January 2019 - 01:00 PM, said:

View PostYash, on 03 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm really curious what it is about Sonic that makes people feel the need to share this in the most obnoxious way possible, like everyone who still enjoys the games is just a cheap mark who was somehow tricked into thinking the games were good.



Two things:

First of all, as TCG remarked in his retrospective, for a lot of younger gamers, Sonic is not a famous platforming video games from the 90's. It's Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom--a bizarre clusterfuck of a shitty series that is only liked by out-of-touch boomers and weird furries drawing weird fetish porn.

However, despite this, Sonic has a massive and loyal fanbase. His games keep selling (even if the sales are finally starting to slow). He has a bunch of older fans like us who talk about his glory days. For a supposedly shitty series, Sonic doesn't die. So these younger fans, who only know Sonic from Let's Plays/shitty Youtube analyses of bad Sonic games (and horribly-played let's plays of the actually good ones), go back and check out the originals. And Sonic, for someone raised on Mario-derived platformers (AKA "literally every other platformer in existence besides Sonic), is extremely weird. We don't mind because we know and like Sonic's inertia and weight, and kids in the 90's were young and willing to try new things.

These people don't know any framework of judging a platformer besides "how Mario-like is this" and Sonic "fails" such a standard, so they skip over the logical conclusion--"Sonic is a different kind of platformer and requires you to play it differently"--and fly straight to the utterly illogical one of "SONIC WAS NEVER GOOD AND IT'S CHEAP AND HARD AND IT'S NOT LIKE MARIO* AND THAT'S BAD".

*:they never actually state this, but it's clear it's what they actually believe underneath all the superfluous verbiage


This is 100% true, and something I wish more people talked about.

Sonic's legacy was simply interrupted. Mario more or less defined how platforming should be, not so much in terms of how you move around, but in how the game is structured. Mario is all about solving problems. If there's something on the stage, there's a reason for it. When you complete a level, you have solved it. There's a start, and there's a finish. Everything pretty well-woven. You probably did what you were supposed to, and if you don't - say, if you speedrun through it jumping around in weird ways or doing whatever strange thing people like this guy does, it's a transgression. The levels teach you, accommodate you, etc etc.

Sonic doesn't work like that. You always leave things behind, things are just there and you don't really need anything but the character itself to complete a level. There's less of a puzzle-like environment, and just about anything you do feels like a transgression. Not that you aren't supposed to do that, but more like the game doesn't really know or care about what you're doing. And this approach simply... doesn't exist anymore, in gaming as a whole. This happened with Phantasy Star, too, when it comes to RPGs. So it's understandable that people find Sonic strange nowadays if they didn't grow up with it (or even if they did).
This post has been edited by Palas: 04 January 2019 - 02:12 PM

#39 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:06 PM

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View Post360, on 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yeah I think this is just getting older also. I still enjoy video games and Sonic games included but no way near as much as in my youth when video games were these beautiful fantastical experiences of which nothing else came close. Also to echo everyone else there doesn't seem much point in you being here if you don't like the games this forum revolves around? Overlord is also going to trash this as soon as he sees it. So you may want to try to positively contribute with your remaining trial posts if you want to stay. That's just friendly advice. No negative sentiment intended.

Funnily enough, I was the one who Trial'd him. Despite vehemently disagreeing with his core points on just about every level, the post itself was well written so he passed the bar of "don't be an obvious retard" that gets you into Trial. I've somewhat enjoyed reading the replies to this thread - I was going to trash it if it turned out to be an utter shitfest but there's an actual legit discussion going on here alongside the shitposting.

However I will say that you're going to have to post about other things too if you're passing 20 posts - "I hate all Sonic games" being your sole schtick isn't exactly going to marry well with your continued membership of a heavily-Sonic-focused forum.

#40 User is offline Nicky Ali 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:09 PM

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View PostFrostav, on 04 January 2019 - 01:00 PM, said:


Two things:

First of all, as TCG remarked in his retrospective, for a lot of younger gamers, Sonic is not a famous platforming video games from the 90's. It's Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom--a bizarre clusterfuck of a shitty series that is only liked by out-of-touch boomers and weird furries drawing weird fetish porn.


As someone who sits in the Generation Z age range, the idea that Sonic is liked mainly by 60 year old boomers is really funny to me lol. Not entirely untrue though, Sonic is definitely a franchise that seems to stay relevant because of its legacy.

View PostPalas, on 04 January 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

View PostFrostav, on 04 January 2019 - 01:00 PM, said:

These people don't know any framework of judging a platformer besides "how Mario-like is this" and Sonic "fails" such a standard, so they skip over the logical conclusion--"Sonic is a different kind of platformer and requires you to play it differently"--and fly straight to the utterly illogical one of "SONIC WAS NEVER GOOD AND IT'S CHEAP AND HARD AND IT'S NOT LIKE MARIO* AND THAT'S BAD".

This is 100% true, and something I wish more people talked about.

Sonic's legacy was simply interrupted. Mario more or less defined how platforming should be, not so much in terms of how you move around, but in how the game is structured. Mario is all about solving problems. If there's something on the stage, there's a reason for it. When you complete a level, you have solved it. There's a start, and there's a finish. Everything pretty well-woven. You probably did what you were supposed to, and if you don't - say, if you speedrun through it jumping around in weird ways or doing whatever strange thing people like this guy does, it's a transgression. The levels teach you, accommodate you, etc etc.

Sonic doesn't work like that. You always leave things behind, things are just there and you don't really need anything but the character itself to complete a level. There's less of a puzzle-like environment, and just about anything you do feels like a transgression. Not that you aren't supposed to do that, but more like the game doesn't really know or care about what you're doing. And this approach simply... doesn't exist anymore, in gaming as a whole. This happened with Phantasy Star, too, when it comes to RPGs. So it's understandable that people find Sonic strange nowadays if they didn't grow up with it (or even if they did).


With games like Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces, that play in a very linear and hand-holdy way and at times feel like a generic run-of-the-mill type platformer, I genuinely wonder if this is a mentality that's bled into modern Sonic Team. These games don't feel like Sonic games to me and they instead feel more like the result of someone taking the basic aspects of a Sonic game (i.e. 'he goes fast and collects rings') and then reverse-engineering them to be more like a traditional Mario platformer. As if even they think people will find traditional Sonic strange.
This post has been edited by Nicky Ali: 04 January 2019 - 03:10 PM

#41 User is offline Frostav 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:45 PM

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It's very telling that many non-Sonic fans will go "Now Colors, that's was a good game and what Sonic should be like!" when Colors is the farthest Sonic has ever gone in throwing away even the barest scraps of his DNA in favor of being a subpar blocky Mario platformer, complete with shoehorned power-ups.

#42 User is offline HedgeHayes 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:55 PM

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This whole thing is very interesting; not the video, which I won't be seeing like i don't watch the 99,9% of this stuff, but all the elements converging in this thread. You've been not only discussing the post, but also the community, the value of having opposite opinions, the quality of said opinions and the way tyo evaluate it... third page and there's already so much here.

That said, I'll do my part here and share what I think. First of all, I understand the feeling, not with Sonic, but with some other stuff. It's no just an standard age/matureness/experience thing, though it indeed is that kind of thing. It's like being distracted for a long time and suddenly realizing you weren't meant to be doing that, like passing near a TV and start looking at it even if you're not interested, just because it instinctively attracted your attention. And yes, Dragon Ball is a good example as soon as Dragon Ball Z, since it becomes a quite standard shonen instead of oozing imagination like it did with kid Goku.

Something I understood from you (Ion) is there's no challenge for you in a classic Sonic game. If you say that because you find it easy, there are hacks and fangames that can solve that problem for you, but I sense something else similar to what Frostav said about the "Mario rulebook". be it the difficulty or anything else, I disagree in both cases and will tell you something like Frostav did: (classic) Sonic's uniqueness is not about mindlessly run through a level to complete the task, is about enjoying the trip, like being a tourist in a pixelated world. There are games in which I wished there was some kind of tourist mode where i could explore the map with no enemies or rewards, where I only wanted to experiment with the environment, no matter which engine it was, and I wanted to find that kind of sensation in a lot of modern Sonic games too, in which I got long empty lanes with no appeal instead. If you don't enjoy that uniqueness from Sonic games, I wonder if you enjoy doing a similar thing in real life, like playing a game with your friends with no end and no winner, or just going for a walk through a forest or on a mountain. I'm talking about enjoying the moment instead of ticking a to-do list: If you do, maybe the games fall flat for you compared to real life; if you don't, you should be really worried about that disconnection with your feelings.

Maybe I'm going to far, but the way you explained it made it sound quite strange, and this idea came to my mind. Also, the situation is evidently weird for you too, so I imagined you could appreciate a deeper thought on it beyond just discussing the real worth of the games. As I said before, I understand the feeling, since I feel that way in regard of some aspects of my life, and I'm trying to find why and "fill that void", so to speak. Everything else is about personal tastes and preferences: I'm the guy around here that really hates Sonic Colours, a game almost everyone else likes, and I still don't get why they do, but I envy them for being able to do that. For you, I'd suggest to check out that video from Hirokazu Yasuhara at Digital Dragons where he talked about how to make a videogame fun if you haven't yet (you can find the link and everything else in the "Hirokazu Yasuhara reveals all kind of interesting stuff" thread). It may help you and, even if it doesn't, it's an interesting view nonetheless.

There's probably something I'm forgetting to comment, but you have enough to think about here already. Let's see how this thread progresses.


#43 User is offline The Negative Ion 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 04:29 PM

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View PostNicky Ali, on 04 January 2019 - 11:12 AM, said:

I haven't watched your full video yet, but I'm a decent ways in. Honestly, what you say about wishing the field of view was scaled back so you could get a wider look at the map is something I've thought that 2D Sonic games could really benefit from for a while. That, coupled with enemies and stage hazards that are telegraphed effectively could really help with the whole "I don't have enough time to react to what's coming ahead of me" thing.

Yeah, I still do think that's a great idea, too. I don't think that Sonic going fast is a bad thing. I just think that if he's going to be rolling around at the speed of sound, the player needs to be able to observe their surroundings in the moment. And to do that, there needs to be enough screen space to accompany whatever speed he's going at so that I'm not feeling cheated when I accidentally jump into a bed of spikes. Sonic may be the fastest thing alive, but he still has eyes... er, an eye... right?


View PostLaughingcow, on 04 January 2019 - 11:24 AM, said:

Everything I just said.

Before I respond, I just wanna ask you if you watched the video to it's completion yet. I mean I'm sure you have, but I just find it rather odd that you haven't directly referenced anything from it. If you haven't, the go ahead and do that first once you find the time to do so.
But wow, you were a playtester for Hatred? That's awesome! Man, I'm so jealous.


View PostPalas, on 04 January 2019 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostThe Negative Ion, on 04 January 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

Well, games have objectives. The purpose of a game, video or not, is to meet that objective. The way that you do so is what I mean by actually playing the game. Overcoming the challenges set forth makes me feel like I accomplished something and I feel as if I've become better at what I do. Once that happens, then you can set personal challenges just because you want to because you enjoyed yourself the first time. Unfortunately, that's not the case with me and Sonic games. I didn't feel any sense of challenge playing Sonic 3 and so I couldn't really enjoy it. Everything else like the music, graphics, whatever, all that stuff is great. But it's all stuff that you can just look at a YouTube video for. As I told someone else here, video games offer a unique experience in the entertainment medium that simply can't be replicated in movies and books. The one thing that makes it unique is... well, player interaction. That's why I hold Sonic games to a different standard than Sonic comics or Sonic... dare I say it... movies. I mean games can still have their edgy characters and dark stories and cheesy one-liners if they want, that's fine. But to me, the objective and the means of reaching it is what matters most to me. That's what I mean by actually playing the game. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in the video.


This is not true. (Final) objectives are part of rulesets - which don't come with every game, in fact - but rulesets are simply the setup from which gameplay emerges. Gameplay is not a separate entity in the human brain that is only ever activated in the presence of a videogame. In fact, music, graphics and so on and so forth are all gameplay elements.

Here is a basic example: animated elements in the background aren't just pretty. They also keep your attention all over the screen, keeping you alert. There are no rules about it, but they are important elements of gameplay, changing how you approach hazards. Gameplay is a property of the person playing, not of the game. And while I don't want to talk about movies or books, you can play with them. Some movies - thriller movies, for one - do, consistently.

Overcoming the challenges set forth could be fun in itself, but getting whatever it is from it (say, advancement in a story) is just as valid. I can respect you saying playing Sonic is kind of a chore, but what you saying that you can pick apart elements in a game and reorganize, delete or move them around while still keeping gameplay intact - is simply false.

I don't think that's false at all. The animated element example that you brought up, I do agree with. There were times in my Sonic Generations livestream where the enemies just blended into the environment and I ran into it because of it. But done right, they can help differentiate the foreground from the background so not everything just looks like an unintelligible mishmash of colors. Because of that, they do play at least some role in gameplay so you can actually tell what the hell is going on and where. I honestly feel rather silly not bringing that up earlier.

Of course, I wouldn't say that your way of enjoying games is wrong either. It's just that we both set different priorities as to what makes a game enjoyable. To me, a game without an objective is like a race without a finish line. There're no winners, there's no challenge, there's no point. But as I said in the video, I do have a reward to look forward to achieving when it's all said and done. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother. That's just me. I still think it's possible to like Sonic games even when you put gameplay above all else. The fact that I like any Sonic games at all (as you saw in my video) should be proof of that. Hell, even Mr. Anti-Sonic himself, Egoraptor, likes Sonic 3.

Um... you did see the video, right? Just making sure.

#44 User is offline Palas 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 04:39 PM

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View PostThe Negative Ion, on 04 January 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't think that's false at all. The animated element example that you brought up, I do agree with. There were times in my Sonic Generations livestream where the enemies just blended into the environment and I ran into it because of it. But done right, they can help differentiate the foreground from the background so not everything just looks like an unintelligible mishmash of colors. Because of that, they do play at least some role in gameplay so you can actually tell what the hell is going on and where. I honestly feel rather silly not bringing that up earlier.

Of course, I wouldn't say that your way of enjoying games is wrong either. It's just that we both set different priorities as to what makes a game enjoyable. To me, a game without an objective is like a race without a finish line. There're no winners, there's no challenge, there's no point. But as I said in the video, I do have a reward to look forward to achieving when it's all said and done. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother. That's just me. I still think it's possible to like Sonic games even when you put gameplay above all else. The fact that I like any Sonic games at all (as you saw in my video) should be proof of that. Hell, even Mr. Anti-Sonic himself, Egoraptor, likes Sonic 3.

Um... you did see the video, right? Just making sure.


This is not about me or the way I play games. It is about you, however, and about how it's perfectly valid that you should like a game because of its presentation etc etc. That's because, and I repeat, the process of playing a game encompasses a lot of things even if you value objectives more than anything.

So right, you think playing Sonic is a chore. That's fine, but this doesn't make of Sonic's gameplay only what you value in games.

#45 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 05:10 PM

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View PostThe Negative Ion, on 04 January 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

Before I respond, I just wanna ask you if you watched the video to it's completion yet. I mean I'm sure you have, but I just find it rather odd that you haven't directly referenced anything from it. If you haven't, the go ahead and do that first once you find the time to do so.

To completion, nope and I do not intend to. You preface your video for people to convince you to like Sonic which is foolish then proceed to nitpick reasons as to why it isn't fun (such as the final boss spindash fingers complaint). Either you are having fun or you are not and trying to convince someone they aren't feeling a certain way (outside of mental illness) is the type of brainwashing you would expect from a gay conversion camp. If you aren't having fun, that's fine, play something else. If you want someone to yell at you and scream about how "you're doing it wrong" this is the wrong place for that. Try Twitter or Reddit.

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