[Chimpo]

Cool SEGA CD thread guys.

But how about that Sonic CD?

[ICEknight]

...Any hands-on impressions from PAX?

[D.A. Garden]

I feel more and more cheesed off about owning a Wii and not owning either a PS3 or 360. I'm just a bit annoyed that I won't be able to play Sonic CD in this way. Thanks to the efforts of Taxman, we will have a classic Sonic port that will actually have some thought put into it, along with some nice extra features. Something I don't think we've seen since Sonic Jam for the Saturn (Correct me if I am wrong).
I am impressed, though. Sonic CD is, in my opinion, in the top 3 Sonic games of all time and for it to actually get recognition is something I welcome.

...although this is tempting me to buy a PS3 or 360. Sonic Generations and Sonic CD are changing my mind slowly.

[Sey]

D.A. Garden, on 29 August 2011 - 03:31 AM, said:

I feel more and more cheesed off about owning a Wii and not owning either a PS3 or 360. I'm just a bit annoyed that I won't be able to play Sonic CD in this way. Thanks to the efforts of Taxman, we will have a classic Sonic port that will actually have some thought put into it, along with some nice extra features. Something I don't think we've seen since Sonic Jam for the Saturn (Correct me if I am wrong).
I am impressed, though. Sonic CD is, in my opinion, in the top 3 Sonic games of all time and for it to actually get recognition is something I welcome.

...although this is tempting me to buy a PS3 or 360. Sonic Generations and Sonic CD are changing my mind slowly.

Whilst I don't want to kick off an argument by asking why you don't own an actual gaming console from this generation, I will say don't you have a PC or a phone? That's the beauty of this Sonic CD port; it's coming to EVERY serious device.

[Glaber]

Uhh, reality check. Wii is from this Generation. Saying it's not is as mistaken as saying the Dreamcast was in the same Gen as the N64.

[Ritz]

Steven M, on 28 August 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

To hazard a guess - the level designs, the time-travel gimmick, the object-hunting, the bosses and the music. The Mega Drive series evolved from game to game, but I'd argue there was a philosophy to the level design that those games maintained and that Sonic CD... didn't dispense with entirely, but the zones felt like someone had just discovered the level tile editor and went nuts with it classic Sonic levels were just broken and scattered apart, sometimes all over the place. Sonic 4 was a bad example of a throwback release and while it's not a stellar example of Sonic level design it's a game people might feel more 'at home with'; Sonic CD was an experiment that even today people have mixed feelings about. For me the game's more fun to watch someone else play than to play myself, and I can greatly appreciate the game for its historical value (particular the designer of Sonic being in the director's chair and his ideas on what a Sonic game could look and 'be' like) - but otherwise I'm just bored to tears with it.

EDIT: I think it's the exploration factor that has me at odds with this game the most. It's the same reason I hated the Knuckles/Rogue levels from the Sonic Adventure games. The fact that you're supposed to struggle around the map looking for something (rather than just blitz through it) doesn't make the map any more fun to struggle through. When I think of games where exploration is encouraged I almost invariably think of the Metroidvania titles, and even there the game-play isn't as frustrating to me as Sonic CD because (1) the sense of progress is rewarded with items that let you access more blocked-off paths (rather than temporary shields or robot generators - and at least Adventure 1 and 2 accommodated for this); (2) you accumulate more permanent power the further you progress so that later paths can be attempted at as low or as high a difficulty as you want; (3) the sub-levels and pathways still aren't that haphazard a hazard to navigate, even with power-ups that let you jump higher or even fly for periods of time; and (4) you always have some indication of where you've already been in the level and where you haven't explored yet, generally thanks to the map. In other words you're expected to look around (rather than giving you a short path to the end of the level) because that's the natural progression of the game; you're not left feeling frustrated by a dead-end just after going through a loop-de-loop or hitting a spring; you get a better sense of satisfaction and progress for your efforts (plus more paths to unlock in later and earlier levels); and you're not left feeling short-changed when you can stumble from an upper path to a lower path only to find the end-of-goal signpost and little way back because you mistimed a jump or didn't consult a map.

In the earlier Sonic games it's generally the level that's your playground rather than the level continuously bumping or boosting you towards the goal - hazards are thrown your way to make the level more challenging, but the game never feels unreasonable because you've got a solid goal in mind, you're still allowed some leeway to make your way to that goal, and you're not tasked with stumbling around for trinkets. You may say it's unfair of me to compare this game to a whole different series since there are vast differences in theme and game-play, and I can understand that, but it also reinforces my point that the attempted non-linear progression just feels, not so much out of place but poorly implemented - when people praise Sonic CD for it's unusual progression system or the open-ended nature of its levels or the concept of the generators I always end up thinking "Well no, because here's a game series where that non-linear nature doesn't feel so bolted on to the detriment of the level design and the game rewards you for your efforts with more than just an alternate FMV". Although I will openly admit that the animation cutscenes for this game kick so much ass.

A perfect post. Exploration in Sonic games has always been a point of contention for me, because no matter how much I think I enjoy it (and discovering totally new paths in S3K 15 years later is a real treat, no doubt), in practice, I always wind up taking the most convenient routes through stages anyway. For me, the charm in the multiple routes seems to be more in just knowing that these worlds I'm running through are massive, that I can switch tracks at any moment should I feel so inclined. It's more impulse and less an expectation that something good will come of it. On that point, I think the most successful level designs in Sonic might be the zones with capricious junctions that cater to chance. Gimmicks that require refined coordination are good for route shuffling, like Casino Night's bumpers and flippers or Mushroom Hill's slingshots. Death Egg's tunnel junctions accomplished this in a way, taking impulse to the extreme (though the player is more likely to automatically head right the first time through). But that's an entirely different discussion there!

There usually isn't any incentive to explore in a game like this when all the stages really have to offer is bonus swag that I couldn't possibly have any use for. Come to think of it, the elemental shields were the most successful formula- instant, highly desirable rewards that never seem to last for long, always turning up in the most unusual places. Fun to find, fun to use. Normal shields and lives are just buffer crap for players that suck. Sonic CD's generators are only necessary for scoring good futures up to Tidal Tempest, after which they become a protracted and much less convenient means of accessing a bonus at the very end of the game. Last time I went for an all-generator run, I stopped after Collision Chaos. The trek left me frustrated beyond anything I'd ever experienced in a 2D platformer, and I never really understood why until now. What's more is that regardless of these game elements being entirely optional, there's really no shaking the desire to pursue them. But that sure as hell doesn't mean I'm going to get any positive stimuli out of it! Won't even know if it's worth it until you've tried, and that's still precious time gone to waste. I seem to hold the game in higher esteem than Steven here (between the music and visuals, I'd say the game is a more stylish and cohesive experience than anything else this medium yet has to offer and you can put that on my epitaph), so this is coming off a lot harsher than it should, but the game had some concrete flaws for sure. I haven't even touched on the level design here.

Oh, and

jasonchrist, on 28 August 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

(Master System tribute room in DE1)

What?

This post has been edited by Ritz: 29 August 2011 - 08:03 AM

[Sey]

Glaber, on 29 August 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

Uhh, reality check. Wii is from this Generation. Saying it's not is as mistaken as saying the Dreamcast was in the same Gen as the N64.

Yes, I never said it wasn't, but I don't get how someone can be surprised they're missing out on a good game this generation when all they have is a Wii? Unless you have a PC (which the guy obviously doesn't as he said he doesn't have a platform for the Sonic CD re-release) then you've pretty much missed out on a whole generation. Hardware and software aside, I still don't get why Nintendo enforced that ridiculous WiiWare file-size cap. Not content with scaring off third party online play support, they now want to scare off digital download support? Ridiculous, as if they think gamers couldn't possibly have the intelligence to deal with space management. Then again, given the Wii's target audience...

[Namo]

Looks like Sonic CD is going to be a little slice of Sonic greatness. I'm especially pleased to hear about the Special Stages using actual scaling.

I played the Sonic Nexus and Retso Sonic demos during the last few days, and was impressed with them. I'm sure the engine has been tweaked since those two demos' releases, but even then, they're really impressive.

[Glaber]

Sey, on 29 August 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

Glaber, on 29 August 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

Uhh, reality check. Wii is from this Generation. Saying it's not is as mistaken as saying the Dreamcast was in the same Gen as the N64.

Yes, I never said it wasn't, but I don't get how someone can be surprised they're missing out on a good game this generation when all they have is a Wii? Unless you have a PC (which the guy obviously doesn't as he said he doesn't have a platform for the Sonic CD re-release) then you've pretty much missed out on a whole generation. Hardware and software aside, I still don't get why Nintendo enforced that ridiculous WiiWare file-size cap. Not content with scaring off third party online play support, they now want to scare off digital download support? Ridiculous, as if they think gamers couldn't possibly have the intelligence to deal with space management. Then again, given the Wii's target audience...

You implied it.

Sey, on 29 August 2011 - 04:50 AM, said:

Whilst I don't want to kick off an argument by asking why you don't own an actual gaming console from this generation, I will say don't you have a PC or a phone? That's the beauty of this Sonic CD port; it's coming to EVERY serious device.

but despite that, I too think that the file size restriction needs to be either raised or removed. If that were to happen, then we might get the possiblitly of Sonic CD released through Wii ware.

[Machenstein]

Just a small tidbit, but there's an area in Metallic Madness Zone 2 that's impossible to escape from when in the past. It's a giant room with a diagonal spring that's suppose to take you up to a ledge, but can't due to the diagonal spring being slightly too low. This renders the level impossible to beat unless you manage to return to the present. It was later fixed in the PC version by moving the diagonal spring slightly up. Scroll down to Point #1 on this page to see what I'm talking about.

Just bringing it up in case someone forgets.

This post has been edited by Machenstein: 29 August 2011 - 12:10 PM

[synchronizer]

I'm afraid you're wrong. In Sonic CD you slow down if you hold the direction you are going in after launching off a spring. If you simply land on a spring, it will take you exactly where you need to go. This is a common misconception. The level is perfectly fine.

EDIT: In fact, I'll go play Metallic Madness 2 in the past right now.

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 29 August 2011 - 12:32 PM

[Tyty]

The filesize restriction on Wiiware can't be increased though, due to how small the Wii's internal memory is, and as much as SD cards help, they don't solve the issue.

I'm more wondering why it's not coming to the 3DS as a downloadable title myself. The 3DS uses an SD card to expand internal memory, right? Something like this on the eShop would definitely increase sales.

[Machenstein]

synchronizer, on 29 August 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm afraid you're wrong. In Sonic CD you slow down if you hold the direction you are going in after launching off a spring. If you simply land on that spring it will take you exactly where you need to go. This is a common misconception. The level is perfectly fine.

I tried that too. In both the Mega CD and Sega CD version. It only works in the PC version, unless it's a problem with the emulator I'm using.

[Blue Blood]

Machenstein, on 29 August 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Just a small tidbit, but there's an area in Metallic Madness Zone 2 that's impossible to escape from when in the past. It's a giant room with a diagonal spring that's suppose to take you up to a ledge, but can't due to the diagonal spring being slightly too low. This renders the level impossible to beat unless you manage to return to the present. It was later fixed in the PC version by moving the diagonal spring slightly up. Scroll down to Point #1 on this page to see what I'm talking about.

Just bringing it up in case someone forgets.

synchronizer, on 29 August 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm afraid you're wrong. In Sonic CD you slow down if you hold the direction you are going in after launching off a spring. If you simply land on a spring, it will take you exactly where you need to go. This is a common misconception. The level is perfectly fine.

Oh, so is this the diagonal spring bug everyone refers to? That's quite lame. Hopefully it'll be fixed. Unlike with previous ports of Sonic games, it's not actually too much to ask this time.

[synchronizer]

Machenstein, on 29 August 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

synchronizer, on 29 August 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm afraid you're wrong. In Sonic CD you slow down if you hold the direction you are going in after launching off a spring. If you simply land on that spring it will take you exactly where you need to go. This is a common misconception. The level is perfectly fine.

I tried that too. In both the Mega CD and Sega CD version. It only works in the PC version, unless it's a problem with the emulator I'm using.

Oh wow. I can't do it either! I've done it before for sure though! Maybe it WAS only in the PC version, Why would it be different though? Indeed it's bad spring placement but I don't think it's impossible to get up to that ledge. Hmm... Sonic CD's physics in mid air are quite unusual.

Blue Blood, on 29 August 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

Machenstein, on 29 August 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Just a small tidbit, but there's an area in Metallic Madness Zone 2 that's impossible to escape from when in the past. It's a giant room with a diagonal spring that's suppose to take you up to a ledge, but can't due to the diagonal spring being slightly too low. This renders the level impossible to beat unless you manage to return to the present. It was later fixed in the PC version by moving the diagonal spring slightly up. Scroll down to Point #1 on this page to see what I'm talking about.

Just bringing it up in case someone forgets.

synchronizer, on 29 August 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm afraid you're wrong. In Sonic CD you slow down if you hold the direction you are going in after launching off a spring. If you simply land on a spring, it will take you exactly where you need to go. This is a common misconception. The level is perfectly fine.

Oh, so is this the diagonal spring bug everyone refers to? That's quite lame. Hopefully it'll be fixed. Unlike with previous ports of Sonic games, it's not actually too much to ask this time.

No it's not a bug from what I understand. It's Sonic's physics in Sonic CD. They purposely made it so hold a direction actually adds friction and slows you down if you are in mid air or if you use the super-peel-out. it's quite odd but it certainly adds to the challenge of the game, and lets you control how far springs send you. I'd like to know if anyone has managed to get up to the ledge in Metallic Madness 2 in the MegaCD version. Perhaps hitting the spring at a certain spot or angle will do it?

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 29 August 2011 - 12:37 PM