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New article by Retro gamer on the making of Sonic Adventure

#31 User is offline Dark Sonic 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:32 PM

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View PostLaughingcow, on 04 January 2019 - 09:26 AM, said:

I just want my 3d Sonic to be 3d platformers again instead of this on-rails QTE nonsense we've been getting. I say this as someone who didn't like Lost World which at least tried.

I would love to see an adventure like game with some of Lost World's parkour mechanics. Lost World was a weird game but some of those mechanics were a good idea, even if the execution was a bit eh. It would add a lot of possibilities to level design if implemented properly.

#32 User is offline Frostav 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:58 PM

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I used to like the boost formula, and I still like Gens, but after playing too many 3D fan-engines that show incredible potential, such as that Hill Top re-imagining in the Bumper Engine, I just can't get behind a style with as many limitations as the boost formula. An unfucked Adventure style would have so much to offer.

Not that I expect modern Sonic Team to actually be able to do that of course :v:

#33 User is offline UpCDownCLeftCRightC 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:10 PM

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I actually just tried Lost world recently with that humble bundle sale.
The game had some good ideas and I see that Sonic Team was interested in doing, on some level, what were talking about here. It's just that....the controls in that game are horrendous. On top of that, there was absolutely no reason to include a run button. Very rough game, even though it had lots of polish and showed deliberate thought in many areas. I definitely thought ST was doing the right thing by going in the direction back towards 3D platforming. But they really needed to learn and understand what they were doing wrong.

Again regarding Adventure though: the intention of that game and spirit of what they were trying to accomplish, I was 100% in agreement with. It's what sonic needed, to reestablish his basic gameplay in 3D and find a way to expand on his world to make better use of 3D and story elements
. Most of the flaws.fdom that game come from its scope and ambition, since they didnt focus enough in areas they needed to....and also from the limited tech of the time. Again though, I don't think that Adventyre has a monopoly on the 3D sonic concept. If you reworked that game (or even SA2) structurally to make a better foundation for a 3D sonic, you'd end up changing an awful lot especially in regard to the alternative gameplay, and even some of Sonic's level design and physics. And at that point, why even call it sonic adventure?
So my point is absolutely not too poo poo those games, but merely to point out that starting fresh with good ideas in mind would probably be better than trying to force that to work.

#34 User is offline 360 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:41 PM

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I still think the tight, locked-on and full control over Sonic in SA2 is the best Sonic has ever moved in a 3D space. Easy to learn and difficult to master - but once you've mastered it Sonic controls like a dream and the game is just a wonder. I think there's a reason so many fans love SA2 and in particular the Sonic and Shadow stages even today with such reverence and it's because they nailed how Sonic controlled in 3D way back then - but thanks to the disaster of Sonic 06 abandoned that style of engine permanently for the boost games.

So I think that's the most exciting prospect about this. A return to that engine with boost finally falling to the way side - and that's principally why I'd love to see Adventure remakes.
This post has been edited by 360: 04 January 2019 - 03:44 PM

#35 User is offline UpCDownCLeftCRightC 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 06:34 PM

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Sonic controlling smoothly is not the only barometer of whether or not his formula works. There is so much more that goes along with it, most importantly whether or not the controls harmonize well with the level design. Sonic Adventure 2 in many ways was the progenitor of what people don't like about the series extremely linear hallway like level design in 3D and was as linear as any boost game. What good are smooth controls if they don't add much to your ability to explore the levels? In fact I would argue that sonic generations is the logical conclusion of the gameplay and level design presented in SA2 and did it much better, despite not "feeling" as satisfying.

I think because sonic adventure is the only real example of the series trying to approximate the classic gameplay in 3D, most fans attach a sense of importance or value to that design. I say it again, there is no reason to think Adventure = 3D platforming Sonic, particularly when it didnt do it all that well to begin with. It made an honest attempt at it and approximated it somewhat, and Sonic felt mostly good and smooth when he moved around the environment....but its standout only because what has been done since has only gotten much worse, and at some point ST completely abandoned the approach of translating Yuji naka's smooth physics gameplay.

I don't think people should make those games out to be more than they were. I'm not saying don't be a diehard fan or anything, and no comment on the story, nothing like that. Strictly from a gameplay perspective, the bar for 3D platforming set by those games is only high compared to the complete non-attempts since, not because they were a shining example of 3D sonic nailed just right. Because they absolutely were not.
This post has been edited by UpCDownCLeftCRightC: 04 January 2019 - 06:36 PM

#36 User is offline Prototype 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 06:50 PM

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It's interesting that they could never get the physics closer to a 3d approximation of the 2d gameplay. I know that the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series is an entirely different kettle of fish and that combining that with platforming might be difficult, but the series at least showed that you could get decent ramp/half pipe physics.

#37 User is offline Sir_mihael 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 07:09 PM

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View PostNiktheGreek, on 03 January 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

That being said, I do believe that while Sonic Adventure isn't perfect, the game takes a huge amount of retrospective shit that it doesn't necessarily deserve.

Always felt this way too, and I'm kinda under the impression that every SA1 release since the original (okay, every version of SADX to be exact) has only served to do more harm to the original game.

People will download SADX on their PS3/Steam and go "See? I told you Sonic Adventure isn't good."

Rather than a remake, I would just love a fully polished HD release of the game. Maybe just with updated assests Bluepoint style. Or at least something that shows the true SA1 in the best light without trying to remake every asset from scratch.

#38 User is offline Frostav 

Posted 04 January 2019 - 08:30 PM

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View PostPrototype, on 04 January 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

It's interesting that they could never get the physics closer to a 3d approximation of the 2d gameplay. I know that the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series is an entirely different kettle of fish and that combining that with platforming might be difficult, but the series at least showed that you could get decent ramp/half pipe physics.

The idea that creating proper slope/rolling physics is some insurmountable goal is honestly not really that true, I feel. It's just something people say to convince themselves that Sonic Team's refusal to do so is out of competence and not because...they don't want to. Because as you said, Tony Hawk already did it. An internal SEGA team (Amusement Vision) already did it with Super Monkey Ball while Sonic Team was floundering on their ass with Heroes. Nintendo nonchalantly implemented rolling physics into Super Mario Odyssey and they didn't even make a big mention of it. I bought a game on Steam for three bucks that has better rolling physics than anything Sonic Team ever created, for chrissakes! (Polyball, for the record)

Sonic Team not doing them is because they don't want to do them (which is a problem, but different from "they can't do them").
This post has been edited by Frostav: 04 January 2019 - 08:31 PM

#39 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 05 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

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View PostSir_mihael, on 04 January 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

View PostNiktheGreek, on 03 January 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

That being said, I do believe that while Sonic Adventure isn't perfect, the game takes a huge amount of retrospective shit that it doesn't necessarily deserve.

Always felt this way too, and I'm kinda under the impression that every SA1 release since the original (okay, every version of SADX to be exact) has only served to do more harm to the original game.

People will download SADX on their PS3/Steam and go "See? I told you Sonic Adventure isn't good."


Would someone who dislikes the PS3/Steam version of Sonic Adventure DX really be swayed by the Dreamcast version? As hardcore fans, we can analyse all the little differences, but to 99% of people they're the same game with slightly different graphics.

View PostSir_mihael, on 04 January 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

Rather than a remake, I would just love a fully polished HD release of the game. Maybe just with updated assests Bluepoint style. Or at least something that shows the true SA1 in the best light without trying to remake every asset from scratch.


I think it would be cool to see an M2 Sega Ages version that's Dreamcast accurate, with all the DLC and the Chao Adventure VM game.

But for a proper remake, I think they should go all out. Not just a Mario All-Stars or Crash Bandicoot N-Sane Trilogy style graphical update, but a complete overhaul, like Metroid: Zero Mission.

As others have said, Sonic Adventure was perhaps too ambitious and limited by the technology of the time. There's a lot to be improved upon - the camera (like almost all 3D games of the era), the bugs, Sonic's somewhat slippery controls, the finicky homing attack and light speed dash, the primitive fishing, Sky Chase and Twinkle Circuit games, the limited interactivity in Chao Garden, some wooden English dialogue and voice acting, the frankly inept sound balance and scoring of the cut scenes (and the menu BGM changing with every selection).

There's plenty of room for new content too. Sonic Adventure 2's scoring/ranking system was the best the series has ever had, so they should copy that, and add Sonic Rush Adventure style extra missions. Tails/Knuckles/Amy/Gamma/Big's campaigns could be extended, utilising all of the game's levels. They could add a Sonic version of Hot Shelter, or rework the story to have boss battles with Chaos 1, 3 and 5. A 2-Player Versus mode ala SA2 Battle. If they wanted to go even further, they could add an "Act 2" to all of Sonic's levels.

Diamond in the rough games, like Sonic Adventure, are the ones that stand to benefit the most from being remade.

#40 User is offline Dissident 

Posted 05 January 2019 - 02:21 PM

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I have no faith in Modern Sonic Team but there are two things that are notable to me in this particular situation:

1. Modern Sonic Team as we know it has apparently been dissolved in the last restructuring anyway. We don't know what the ramifications of that are yet though.

2. Sonic Adventure is a known quantity. For better or worse I already know far ahead of time that I will like the story because I know the story, I already know I will like the art style because I know the art style, etc. That's not something I can say about a completely original project because frankly I've been wholly uninterested in these design decisions from every game since Colors.

Maybe I'll like it, maybe not, but the truth is I'm more interested in the idea of it than an original Sonic project because Mania aside I haven't found a single one of those even remotely interesting in the past decade.

#41 User is offline Sir_mihael 

Posted 06 January 2019 - 12:57 PM

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View PostPengi, on 05 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

View PostSir_mihael, on 04 January 2019 - 07:09 PM, said:

View PostNiktheGreek, on 03 January 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

That being said, I do believe that while Sonic Adventure isn't perfect, the game takes a huge amount of retrospective shit that it doesn't necessarily deserve.

Always felt this way too, and I'm kinda under the impression that every SA1 release since the original (okay, every version of SADX to be exact) has only served to do more harm to the original game.

People will download SADX on their PS3/Steam and go "See? I told you Sonic Adventure isn't good."


Would someone who dislikes the PS3/Steam version of Sonic Adventure DX really be swayed by the Dreamcast version? As hardcore fans, we can analyse all the little differences, but to 99% of people they're the same game with slightly different graphics.


Oh yeah definitely on a surface level. I just feel like if someone was going to dislike SA1, they would dislike it a lot faster playing the current releases than if they played something that was closer to the Dreamcast version's quality. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I really felt like every SADX port after the GCN one felt a bit... odd? Still, wouldn't hurt for the game to scrub up as best as possible for fans.

Also purely anecdotal, but it seems most people I've spoken to on/offline about SA1 who don't like the game seem to have played only the recent ports. Although this could easily go down the nostalgia factor road which is another discussion entirely...

#42 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:33 PM

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View PostSir_mihael, on 06 January 2019 - 12:57 PM, said:

Oh yeah definitely on a surface level. I just feel like if someone was going to dislike SA1, they would dislike it a lot faster playing the current releases than if they played something that was closer to the Dreamcast version's quality. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I really felt like every SADX port after the GCN one felt a bit... odd?

You have good instincts, Mihael. The "DX" version fails so hard that there is an entire website dedicated to documenting said failure (and fixing it in the initial PC port).

http://dreamcastify....liable.network/



#43 User is offline Black Squirrel 

Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:31 PM

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View PostNiktheGreek, on 03 January 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

18/ Likewise, an enemy like a dragon was also shown in Sky Chase. What happened to this one?
Iizuka: I don't remember all the details about this, but I don't think there was ever a plan to put a giant dragon enemy in Sky Chase, but the person in charge of Sky Chase took it upon themselves to create that model. Sky Chase was made at the last half of Development, during a busy time, so it may not have been completed in time to the level we felt comfortable implementing.

Just want to make sure somebody sees this quote and archives things on the wiki.


On Sonic Adventure:

Band Aid released Do They Know It's Christmas? in 1984, where it received a very mixed reception from the music industry. It's was considered a bit too corny, billed as a platform in which to boost the career of flagging celebrities (including Bob Geldof), and it has a bizarre, very-Westernised view on "Africa" that seems to imply everyone is living in famine in a desert.

But they still play it every year and you all know the words (if you live in the UK at least). It's kinda garbage, but it's a classic.


The song has been re-released three times; 1989, 2004 and 2014. Each version is terrible and you rarely hear either of them played on the radio. But how can this be? They've all been released for similar causes and they all try and address problems in the lyrics - statistically they should be better versions, and yet they are worse, because they were created by people who didn't understand what the original song represented. And that's despite Bob Geldof and Midge Ure being involved in all of them. The moral of the story? Leave it alone. It's fine.

#44 User is offline Prototype 

Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:35 PM

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View PostDissident, on 05 January 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

Modern Sonic Team as we know it has apparently been dissolved in the last restructuring anyway. We don't know what the ramifications of that are yet though.


Where did you hear this? And when was the last restructuring? Is that why Forces didn't have many people (comparatively) working on it? Or were they restructured after Mania/Forces?

Interesting if true.

#45 User is offline Dark Sonic 

Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:48 PM

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View PostPrototype, on 06 January 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

View PostDissident, on 05 January 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

Modern Sonic Team as we know it has apparently been dissolved in the last restructuring anyway. We don't know what the ramifications of that are yet though.


Where did you hear this? And when was the last restructuring? Is that why Forces didn't have many people (comparatively) working on it? Or were they restructured after Mania/Forces?

Interesting if true.

It was apparently restructured after Mania/Forces. What was apparently Sonic Team or CS3 I guess dissolved into CS2, with most major Sonic development along with Iizuka shifted to SoA.

So things are a changing.

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