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Sonic 2 Level Order

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by RetroKoH, Mar 24, 2012.

  1. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    So I'm playing through Sonic 2... and also working on some concept ideas for my fangame... and it hit me... out of all 3 games, Sonic 2 really does have the WORST level order layout of the three... It just doesn't feel like the levels are in the order they should be... EHZ is a great start... but CPZ comes out of nowhere IMO... then ARZ, and out of nowhere, CNZ... although that's not quite as bad IMO, then all of a sudden we are on Hilltop Zone, then after that it makes a little more sense with MCZ. OOZ follows, no real complaints. Metropolis, Sky Chase, Wing Fortress, and Death Egg conclude the game, and those 4 are without a doubt perfect where they are... but how about the others?

    Maybe I'm wrong? But I feel like it's just not right... how would you guys do it? IF you would change it... or is the level order just fine, and I'm looking too deep into things that are probably not even there?

    EDIT: The one thing I would change more than anything else is Chemical Plant Zone's placement... just thought I'd add that in.
     
  2. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    You're right. I always thought it was out of whack, like how the hell did Sonic jump from a tropical island to a chemically polluted city? There had to be some legit transition in-between.

    Level transitions were only introduced in the second half of the game, with the first half making you question what's really going on.

    I think a more appropriate level should go like this:

    Emerald Hill > (transition deeper through the island's forests and mountains) Aquatic Ruin
    Aquatic Ruin > (transition into the mountain caves) Mystic Cave
    Mystic Cave > (transition up and out onto mountain peaks) Hill Top Zone
    Hill Top Zone > (transition down the mountains towards nearby cities) Casino Night
    Casion Night > (continue through the cities to a more industrialized area) Chemical Plant
    Chemical Plant > (reach the shores of the industrialized cities) Oil Ocean
    Oil Ocean > (transition into Eggman's metropolis) Metropolis
    Metropolis > Sky Chase > Wing Fortress > Death Egg.

    The Hill Top > Casino Night > Chemical Plant > Oil Ocean level order makes a lot of sense in that they give a day-time/night-time progression with Oil Ocean giving a finishing touch with a sun rise.
     
  3. Mr. Mash

    Mr. Mash

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    I'm pretty sure they arranged them in order of difficulty, apart from the last few. It's hard to tell now though, because I've been playing it for 15 years so everything's easy.
    I think it's more important that they have a wide variety of types and settings of levels than that they necessarily make sense
     
  4. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    Emerald Hill (Coast)
    Hill Top
    Mystic Cave
    Hidden Palace
    Aquatic Ruin
    Wood
    Casino
    Chemical Plant
    Metropolis
    Oil Ocean (To Coast)
    Sky Chase
    Wing Fortress
    Death Egg
     
  5. Harmony Friends

    Harmony Friends

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    I wouldn't put Hill Top next to Emerald Hill simply because they're TOO similar. It's better to punctuate that with a few zones... Knucklez has the right idea.
     
  6. Machenstein

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    Sonic 1 had this same problem, but the difference is there was an intended level order. There's a reason why Labyrinth Zone is right under Green Hill Zone in the level select screen. The game was suppose to progress in a way where the levels would get more and more industrialized until you get the Scrap Brain Zone. Of course, since Labyrinth Zone was too difficult for first time players, Sonic Team moved it into the fourth zone slot instead.
     
  7. Wouldn't it be a lot more boring if all the natural levels and all the city levels were lumped together? I like the variety going from level-to-level.
     
  8. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    Sonic 2's level layout is fine. In fact, it sort-of makes sense.

    You've got Sonic and Tails running through various rural areas on the heels of Dr. Robotnik. They keep encountering things which look like bases, only to find they're not the headquarters, and so the two move on. Eventually there's the realisation that actually, Robotnik's main base is in SPACE.

    Sonic 1 does this too on a much smaller scale, as does Sonic 3.
     
  9. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    Chemical Plant, aside from the whole "megamack" sections, isn't a particularly hard zone, so it makes sense that it would be moved up. Just like the aforementioned Labyrinth Zone example, but in reverse. But really, Sonic the Hedgehog levels are about diversity. Even in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which has the level transitions, you had levels that might not make exact sense in the order they were received if you weren't given an excuse for them. Jungle level, underwater city, ruins area, modern carnival, snow covered mountaintops, tropical shoreline built over with a launch base, mushroom covered forest, flying fortress, desert level, lava filled cavern, non lava cavern, floating ruins, flying fortress, and just space. Really, it's only the last few levels that actually flow into each other, just like in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. To be perfectly fair, that's all you need. I don't want to go through four tropical levels followed by four city levels. I want to see as much of Sonic's world as possible in one game, jumping from one location to another and not having any idea what to expect next. As long as it starts in some hilly landscape and ends at the heart of Eggman's latest base of operations, I could not care less what the order of everything is inbetween. As long as there is a gradual curve of difficulty.

    Hell, you can even say the same thing about Sonic Adventure. The hubworlds are an excuse to get from place to place, but that doesn't always make the flow of levels make sense either. Emerald Coast, Windy Valley, Casinopolis, Ice Cap, Twinkle Park...not exactly a natural progression.

    Maybe that is one of the things that bothers me about Sonic Adventure 2. They spent way too much time focusing on creating a flow of levels that actually led into each other. And that kinda hurt the game, because at the end of it, even if you had 30 separate levels, they were only in about four different locations. City, Desert, Space, Jungle. Nothing really special about any of them.
     
  10. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    I was always under the impression that Oil Ocean was during a sunset..
    EDIT: Not that this matters to me... IF I can get it working correctly, one thing I want in my fangame is a day/night system across the zones. That, though, would be one of those final things I would TRY to add.
     
  11. It seems to me that Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the only one of the pre-Adventure games in which the level progression makes any sense at all. Before that they just seem to be arranged by difficulty and nothing more, with fairly random jumps between areas except for the final few levels.
     
  12. Machenstein

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    I rather like Black Squirrel's explanation of Sonic 2's level order. Sonic and Tails start off in the woodlands, just to find out later that half of it's been turned into a polluted chemical engineering plant. Sonic and Tails destroy the chemical engineering plant and restore the woodlands back to the way they were, only to find out later that a sacred ruins site has been turned into a casino. It's like every two levels in the game are their own mini-stories of Sonic and Tails saving natural landscapes from becoming another one of Eggman's bases.
     
  13. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    I can buy into Sonic 1's level progression... I even like to clump together the MD and GG levels of Sonic 1 and it still makes some sense to me,

    GHZ can transition into Bridge Zone perfectly, and Marble Zone as well, based on appearance, MZ's appearance is similar to GHZ at first, THEN it gets different when you get into the underground and lava bits. Plus Bridge Zone and Marble Zone have very similar backgrounds, leading me to believe that they could be close to one another. Spring Yard and Jungle Zone appear almost out of nowhere, but I don't have too much issue with them. (Jungle actually fits a little bit more, and I'd put Spring Yard after Jungle Zone)

    Labyrinth Zone appears out of the blue in the Mega drive Sonic 1. But the map in GG Sonic 1 kinda gives an excuse... I like that touch, so I can forgive it. Star Light and Scrap Brain are more urban/industrial, respectively, and are good closers IMO.

    EDIT: Forgot about Sky Base Zone. I love Sky Base Zone. That is a perfect Final Zone, and is miles ahead of the Final Zone we got for the Mega Drive IMO.

    Sonic 2 is the one that really gets me, but I think the main problem is that there is no way to provide any rhyme or reason to it, such as cutscenes or maps or anything... Maybe if it had this, it wouldn't be that bothersome at all. I am hoping to provide such a map system in my Free Play Mode of my fangame. (A very early mockup of the screen concept is up on my facebook page, minus the zones/islands. Those still need to be drawn)
     
  14. Shadow Fire

    Shadow Fire

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    Y'know, you just posted the EXACT level order I used for Sonic: The Lost Land 2. Don't believe me? Download it and test it out. :P It's been that way for ages, and even a guy on YouTube, after seeing someone's Let's Play, commented on the excellent choice of level order.
     
  15. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Perhaps I may make an alternate level order or two? This one does look great. And I have played Lost Land 2. One of the first hacks on this site I tried out, after Megamix of course... Good stuff.
     
  16. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    Wow, I guess great minds do think alike. :P I saw The Lost Land 2 but never got to try it out. But I just played through it and I have to say (besides how awesome your hack is) the level order is just perfect.

    Someone should make a hack with the level order rearranged to this, but that being the only alteration to the original game.
     
  17. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    What would one think, if one character's story, say Sonic's took the normal route (of course, with some extra stops ;) along the way *HINT* *HINT*
    And another character's story taking him on a slightly different route? Say... IDK, that red guy who tends to adventure around after Sonic's story....?)

    Slightly off topic, but not really... but one major difference is the change from 3 acts to 2... I prefer 2 acts. Any preferences here??
     
  18. Knucklez

    Knucklez

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    Hmmm.. doesn't sound bad at all. You'd just have to figure out how to make a connection between the two... maybe Knuckles' route is the true one? But he derails Sonic off course in random directions, forcing him to find his way back on track after every detour?

    And you should already know Knuckles' last level would have to be Metropolis... with Silver Sonic as his final boss, but at a far higher level of difficulty. Ehhh?
     
  19. RetroKoH

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    You are thinking pretty close to the same wavelength as me... I would route connections between the zones for both guys. However, Knuckles won't be derailing anything for Sonic until the Floating Angel Island zones. That said, I plan on bringing in someone else as a little bit of a cameo to make up for it... Anyway, I was thinking more along the lines of, Sonic has the original route, and later on in Knuckles story, he, not knowing anywhere outside of Angel Island, winds up on the longer, more difficult route, that has the different, out-of-sequence level order... to play to the fact that he is outside his familiar territory... and it being Knuckles who has to find his way, instead of Sonic.

    As for Knuckles final Westside Island zone, you're on the right track, but I'm thinking of a certain 1-act detour after Metropolis that Sonic doesn't go through... and No, there won't be a Silver Sonic waiting. I've got something else in mind...
     
  20. Knucklez

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    I didn't know how else to put it, but you got it spot on. This would be pretty interesting.