[GT Koopa]

While my latest threads don't seem to be hits, here's one that I had in my mind for a while.

First there is one extreme. One singular long and winding path. Goes back and forth, zig zaging, trying to hit all available space. split paths are rare, if non existant. If there are split paths, they are small and simple shortcuts that connect back to the main path. Takes a long time to beat. Then there is the other extreme. Multiple paths. 3 to 4 on average. Again takes up all available space due to the sheer number of paths, filled to the brim. The downside is that acts are so short that you can beat them before you know it.

This post has been edited by GT Koopa: 27 September 2010 - 08:33 AM

[Cooljerk]

like stardust speedway

[GT Koopa]

Well, it isn't about the zones themselves. To put it simpler, it boils down to the space provided. See, I made a simple 1 act labyrinth zone hack way back when that people liked. (It took them a while to notice it though) It was long and used all the available space. It went over itself again and again, using switches and intercrossing tubes to create loops upon loops. I even had the path backtrack BACKWARDS for HALF the stage length before going forwards again.


But hey, level layouts general. Don't let my ramblings stop you from having discussion.

This post has been edited by GT Koopa: 27 September 2010 - 08:43 AM

[Namo]

Stardust Speedway was the most intricate Sonic level I've ever seen - too intricate for it's own good. Playing it now, I absolutely hate it, not to mention it's rather ugly to boot - it's made out of tubes. It's too much of a pain to navigate, really.

If you ask me, Palmtree Panic and Collision Chaos are perfect in terms of aesthetics and branching paths. There's not too many of them, and they're all very different looking so you always know where you're going.

[Azukara]

I'd have to agree that stages like Palmtree Panic are a great balance. They are rather widespread and filled with many layers to the layout, and you have to find what route can get you to the finish the fastest (which is why time attack is especially considered). Stages like this allow you to zoom to the end and require quick reaction times for if you want to reach higher routes, and the entire field is a playground you can jump and roll around, and activate level-specific gimmicks.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 27 September 2010 - 01:53 PM

[Robjoe]

I don't often post anymore, or even look at the site frequently, but video game level design has always been one of my passions, which I really developed after fucking around in SonED for years.

First there is one extreme. One singular long and winding path. Goes back and forth, zig zaging, trying to hit all available space. split paths are rare, if non existant. If there are split paths, they are small and simple shortcuts that connect back to the main path. Takes a long time to beat.

This is the worst possible design direction for a Sonic level. Whether it's fast or not is irrelevant: Sonic is about intuitive platforming first and foremost, and alternate paths are CRUCIAL to achieving that. Levels like Marble and Labyrinth have not aged well in the slightest, as they play the same each time, and Marble in particular has plenty of gimmicks which throttle your speed and make sure that, no matter how good or bad at the game the player is, it plays the same time and time again. In a level that is constantly forcing the player in different directions, rather than simply OFFERING them, it is nigh impossible to build and maintain momentum and speed.

Considering the relatively simple goal of the 2D Sonic games (go right), you can have as many paths as you want, as long as there are one or two simple ones that less confident players can take. After familiarizing yourself with these, you can tackle some of the more advanced and difficult paths on the top and bottom of the level, and, in risk-reward style, find goodies for your explorative efforts.

Many of my early levels for Megamix were long and winding, and even if you don't consider that they were amateurish and I blew ass at level design at the time, they were still plain BAD, for the reasons laid out above. I have no idea why people whine about Sonic CD's levels and call them "complex and confusing". It's a Sonic game. if you're getting confused by the alternate routes and gimmicks, then just run to the right. When I was new at the game, I never once had a problem finding my way to the end of levels, with the exception of some absolutely horrible ones, most notably WWZ1 and MMZ2.

tl;dr: Alternate paths are pivotal to Sonic's momentum-fueled exploration and platforming. Complexity is always good, so long as the player is given an "if all else fails" option of a simple, straightforward route.

I could continue this post and go at lengths discussing why almost every 3D level starting with Heroes has been poorly designed, but I've ranted enough for now. Maybe later.

This post has been edited by Robjoe: 27 September 2010 - 02:57 PM

[Vinchenz]

I'm not sure what this topic's about, but I guess since it's Level Layouts General I suppose it's just talking about layouts, huh? :P

I feel that Emerald Hill Zone is the only zone in the entire Sonic series where I don't feel lost when I'm playing in it. There's only two paths and the level isn't humongous nor confusing to navigate (I'm looking at YOU Marble Garden Zone >:()

In that regard, I feel that Emerald Hill Zone is the best first level out of the entire series.

[Hanoch]

I think megaman achieves the best at level design. One screen, you learn a gimmick and utilize it, then the next screen you do it again, only its much harder this time.

But this is sonic and completely another story. Sonic 1's marble zone had good design, but too bad the gimmicks weren't used a lot more. The falling blocks and the smashing spikes/metal blocks could have been used in a much better way. I am actually working on a hack trying to improve sonic 1 a bit, but some limitations in this game make it harder for me to work, so I gotta fix those first.

Also I love how everything is limited. $51 (or $7F if you are loading them uncompressed) chunks for sonic 1 (don't forget some are used for backgrounds, and 2 are for loops) to work with, and that's it. Use them wisely to create the most challenging level ever (not to mention obstacles like spikes, rocks, bottomless pits that could be used to make it even more challenging).

[Namo]

I was playing a Sonic hack awhile ago where the level was just fucking huge - it was cumbersome and intimidating, and I didn't want to start the game again because of it. If you ask me, levels that are so large that they're intimidating and unclear lead to more "Hold left to win" than a linear level, mostly because you don't know where the hell to go and you just want to get out of the level. I don't remember what the hack was called but I complained about it having a waterfall and nothing else as the background for the level.

[Robjoe]

Also I love how everything is limited. $51 (or $7F if you are loading them uncompressed) chunks for sonic 1 (don't forget some are used for backgrounds, and 2 are for loops) to work with, and that's it. Use them wisely to create the most challenging level ever (not to mention obstacles like spikes, rocks, bottomless pits that could be used to make it even more challenging).

No idea exactly how difficult it is to pull off, but you should try to port over the two path collision system seen in Sonic 2 and 3. You'll have FF tiles to work with, and billions of new possibilities at your disposal. I remember how much more empowered I felt when it was added to Megamix. If you're crafty you can really make it shine.

[steveswede]

I was playing a Sonic hack awhile ago where the level was just fucking huge - it was cumbersome and intimidating, and I didn't want to start the game again because of it. If you ask me, levels that are so large that they're intimidating and unclear lead to more "Hold left to win" than a linear level, mostly because you don't know where the hell to go and you just want to get out of the level. I don't remember what the hack was called but I complained about it having a waterfall and nothing else as the background for the level.

Your on about Sonic 2 Retro Remix Cascade Valley act 3. That level design in that is awesome. That level feels big because it loops vertically. Once you have realised that and have played it a good few times, you'll realise it's not cumbersome or intimidating and is a really good level. The main problem with it as you have pointed out is the waterfall background. It can disorientate the hell out of you when your new to it and the disorientation is amplified even more by the fact that the level loops. If it had a background that was fixed vertically and scrolled horizontal, like GHZ. I think you would enjoy that level a whole lot more. It could be an idea to ask Thorn if he would do this.

[Solaris Paradox]

A happy medium is preferable, however, if I had to pick an extreme, it'd be the shorter, deeper experience—provided the alternate routes actually do their job rather than simply being there for the sake of having them.

[SteelBrush]

It has always puzzled me why when converting to 3D did Sonic Team just dispose of alternate routes, was a case of wanting to create a new type of gameplay (if so why scrap a model that works?) Or was it simply because they didn't know how? Sonic R has it's faults but level design isn't one of them, the stages contain huge variation in routes to the main path, aswell as traditional Sonic elements like loops without feeling automated. Sonic 3D, while being isometric, is another example of how a Sonic level should have worked. Explorable sections joined by loops or platforming sections.

I would like to watch Iizuka play the classics, does he just hold right and follow the same route, because that seems to be his philosophy on level design. He has said in interviews that boosters are important as they mantain the "flow" of the level.

Sonic CD is my favourite for classic design, playing that game for the first time as a kid blew my mind. The combination of music, level art and level design just made it feel totally immersive. I spent hours finding all the hidden secrets and routes. I never felt intimidated by the size, I enjoyed the level music so getting stuck into an unexplored section was always a pleasurable experience. It was an incredible game for it's time.

[Squier Super Sonic]

I know plenty of people have already seen these, but they're some of the best resources on Sonic level design I've seen.

Zone 0

Sonic Science

Then there is the other extreme. Multiple paths. 3 to 4 on average. Again takes up all available space due to the sheer number of paths, filled to the brim. The downside is that acts are so short that you can beat them before you know it.

This was my biggest problem with Sonic CD. Besides being too short, the levels are just too dense. It doesn't seem like they were designed with any flow in mind at all, just a bunch of obstacles to run through. I know the point of the design was exploration but there just wasn't much to explore, or anything to find besides the teleporter and projector in the past stages. If you did find and destroy those and wanted to see the good future you had to time travel twice, and by that time you were near the end of the level and backtracking just didn't seem fun.

I think Sonic 3 had the best balance of branching paths and length. The obstacles and gimmicks emphasize speed as an asset (well, not with the barrel) the levels were more balanced to the move sets than Sonic 2's (the spin dash was much more important) and of course, there were character specific paths. Exploration was integrated well also: the special stage rings were well placed and didn't require ring collecting, which could really break the pace in previous games where, if you reached a starpost or neared the signpost without 50 rings you had to backtrack if you wanted to go to the special stage or just skip it.

It has always puzzled me why when converting to 3D did Sonic Team just dispose of alternate routes, was a case of wanting to create a new type of gameplay (if so why scrap a model that works?) Or was it simply because they didn't know how? Sonic R has it's faults but level design isn't one of them, the stages contain huge variation in routes to the main path, aswell as traditional Sonic elements like loops without feeling automated.

I don't know why they don't have more horizontally branching paths. I understand that vertically stacked routes are hard to pull off in 3D, but putting the emphasis on horizontal variation seems like a no brainer.

Sonic 3D, while being isometric, is another example of how a Sonic level should have worked. Explorable sections joined by loops or platforming sections.

I thought the design in Sonic 3D was way too compartmentalized and most of the 'open' spaces just seemed vacant. There didn't seem to be any reasons to go fast, and it never felt fast anyway.

[Namo]

I was playing a Sonic hack awhile ago where the level was just fucking huge - it was cumbersome and intimidating, and I didn't want to start the game again because of it. If you ask me, levels that are so large that they're intimidating and unclear lead to more "Hold left to win" than a linear level, mostly because you don't know where the hell to go and you just want to get out of the level. I don't remember what the hack was called but I complained about it having a waterfall and nothing else as the background for the level.

Your on about Sonic 2 Retro Remix Cascade Valley act 3. That level design in that is awesome. That level feels big because it loops vertically. Once you have realised that and have played it a good few times, you'll realise it's not cumbersome or intimidating and is a really good level. The main problem with it as you have pointed out is the waterfall background. It can disorientate the hell out of you when your new to it and the disorientation is amplified even more by the fact that the level loops. If it had a background that was fixed vertically and scrolled horizontal, like GHZ. I think you would enjoy that level a whole lot more. It could be an idea to ask Thorn if he would do this.

No, it wasn't Sonic 2 Retro Remix Cascade Valley act 3. I know because it was the first act.