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The spindash was a mistake

#31 User is offline Palas 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 09:55 AM

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View PostAerosol, on 27 November 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

How does removing it make the game better, rather than just not using it if you don't like it? Cause all I'm seeing is "I personally don't like using it".


But that's not what anyone said. Everyone said, "the game is better without it because then you play the way Sonic was originally designed". The stages are built around not having to spindash. Besides, "just don't use it if you don't like it" is a really strange argument. I've seen it thrown around to defend the travesty that is the homing attack, ignoring that games have - or should have - some cohesion to them.

#32 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 10:32 AM

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View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

The stages are built around not having to spindash.

That's a really bizarre argument, because it's not against the spindash at all (except when added after-the-fact to games like Sonic 1), but rather the level design.

#33 User is online Aerosol 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 11:00 AM

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View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

View PostAerosol, on 27 November 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

How does removing it make the game better, rather than just not using it if you don't like it? Cause all I'm seeing is "I personally don't like using it".


But that's not what anyone said. Everyone said, "the game is better without it because then you play the way Sonic was originally designed". The stages are built around not having to spindash. Besides, "just don't use it if you don't like it" is a really strange argument. I've seen it thrown around to defend the travesty that is the homing attack, ignoring that games have - or should have - some cohesion to them.


Error, false equivalency. Unless we're talking about the HA in Sonic Advance in which case...you can really just not use it if you don't like it.

#34 User is offline BouncekDeLemos 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 12:54 PM

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Trying not to go too far off topic, but what's y'all's opinion on the recent drop dash mechanic?

Although I like the spindash, I felt that it kept the momentum going a bit better when it came to slopes, more so than the spindash.

#35 User is offline Palas 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 27 November 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

The stages are built around not having to spindash.

That's a really bizarre argument, because it's not against the spindash at all (except when added after-the-fact to games like Sonic 1), but rather the level design.


...Well, yes, but these matters are intertwined. The level design is more or less everything in Sonic, and it's what gives the abilities value or not.

Though a better way to word it would be, "the games weren't designed with the spindash in mind".

Quote

Error, false equivalency. Unless we're talking about the HA in Sonic Advance in which case...you can really just not use it if you don't like it.


No, see, what I'm saying is that the discussion is not about personal preference. And that the argument about "not using it if you don't like" is not the point, as it's a rather strange argument to be made in a discussion that is simply not about that. The equivalency is on point.

#36 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 07:49 PM

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Calling it now, this thread is will descend into the "No true Scotsman" Fallacy just like every Sonic Adventure 3 argument.

The thing about the spin dash is that we already have a game with a perfect example of what happens when we remove it from current level design sensibilities: Amy in Sonic Advance 1.

The compensation is adding either a floating platform at short half pipe sections which you can only get up with the spin dashes' speed boost, placing a longer stretch of land before hand to build momentum (which feels clunky if you mess up the first time) or putting Dimps standard boosters where momentum is necessary. It's not a question of how you FEEL Sonic gameplay design should be but of what influence it has on the level design.

The drop dash seems more built for speedrunning than general gameplay. It's level design utility seems best suited to crumbling platform situations where you don't have time to spin dash and normal running speed is not quick enough. It also has defensive capabilities in say hitting a boss then drop dashing out of the way. I don't think we've gotten a good enough taste of this mechanic yet but these situations are what comes to mind.

As for the Boost...That's just a cheap knockoff of Super Sonic and is outside of the realm of Classic Sonic so I'll ignore it for now. The homing attack was made specifically for 3d so it shouldn't be applied in 2d at all.

#37 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:09 PM

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View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

...Well, yes, but these matters are intertwined. The level design is more or less everything in Sonic, and it's what gives the abilities value or not.

Them being intertwined really just furthers the point, though, that the move itself can hardly be blamed alone if it's in a game that fails to utilize it properly. If they are intertwined, it's completely reasonable to say "The spindash in Sonic 1 was a mistake because it was added after the fact to a game that wasn't designed for it", or "The spindash in Sonic 2 was a mistake because the level design didn't really make good or enough use of it", but it's rather not reasonable to say the spindash was a mistake altogether, particularly when the following several games (3/K/M) made quite good use of it.

#38 User is online Aerosol 

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View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

No, see, what I'm saying is that the discussion is not about personal preference. And that the argument about "not using it if you don't like" is not the point, as it's a rather strange argument to be made in a discussion that is simply not about that. The equivalency is on point.


Every argument I've read in this thread as to why the spindash is a mistake boils down to "I don't like it". Not a single convincing argument as to why it's detrimental to the gameplay as an optional move has been made thus far.

In other words, if you're going to say it's a mistake, you have to show how it negatively impacts the game whether you use it or not. That hasn't happened. Except one person said "it takes longer to look down now" which is such a minor beef but ok.

I don't like the Super Peelout. At all. I see no point to it, especially when there's no control lock with a rolling jump in CD. But I wouldn't call it a mistake. I just don't like it.

Edit: And like Covarr said, it's not enough to say it was mistake in specific circumstances either. The topic is "was the spindash an outright mistake", not "was the spindash in this circumstance a mistake". So at the very least you have to show how it's negatively impacted the direction of comparable games in the franchise.

Is Sonic 3 worse because it was designed with the spindash in mind? How so? Would Sonic 3 be better if you took the spindash out? How so? What would you change in Sonic 3 if you had designed it with the spindash missing? How is that better than what we got?

The answer to these questions will form a convincing argument that the spindash was a mistake beyond "I don't like it".
This post has been edited by Aerosol: 28 November 2018 - 06:01 AM

#39 User is offline Palas 

Posted 28 November 2018 - 08:43 AM

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View PostCovarr, on 27 November 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

...Well, yes, but these matters are intertwined. The level design is more or less everything in Sonic, and it's what gives the abilities value or not.

Them being intertwined really just furthers the point, though, that the move itself can hardly be blamed alone if it's in a game that fails to utilize it properly. If they are intertwined, it's completely reasonable to say "The spindash in Sonic 1 was a mistake because it was added after the fact to a game that wasn't designed for it", or "The spindash in Sonic 2 was a mistake because the level design didn't really make good or enough use of it", but it's rather not reasonable to say the spindash was a mistake altogether, particularly when the following several games (3/K/M) made quite good use of it.


The problem here is that if we go by this view, we're going to fall into an empty discussion about things being good as long as they're good. Given that 3&K made good use of the spindash and 1 made good use of something else that didn't have the spindash, OP is proposing that 1's framework for level design is better because it doesn't have the spindash, and therefore the emphasis on using the stage to gain speed is stronger - not that you can't make a good game with the spindash, or build a functioning framework with it. Now, do I agree with that? I don't know, I don't think so. But the discussion is not simply the spindash, as an ability detached from everything else, being good or not.

View PostAerosol, on 28 November 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

No, see, what I'm saying is that the discussion is not about personal preference. And that the argument about "not using it if you don't like" is not the point, as it's a rather strange argument to be made in a discussion that is simply not about that. The equivalency is on point.


Every argument I've read in this thread as to why the spindash is a mistake boils down to "I don't like it". Not a single convincing argument as to why it's detrimental to the gameplay as an optional move has been made thus far.

In other words, if you're going to say it's a mistake, you have to show how it negatively impacts the game whether you use it or not. That hasn't happened. Except one person said "it takes longer to look down now" which is such a minor beef but ok.

I don't like the Super Peelout. At all. I see no point to it, especially when there's no control lock with a rolling jump in CD. But I wouldn't call it a mistake. I just don't like it.

Edit: And like Covarr said, it's not enough to say it was mistake in specific circumstances either. The topic is "was the spindash an outright mistake", not "was the spindash in this circumstance a mistake". So at the very least you have to show how it's negatively impacted the direction of comparable games in the franchise.

Is Sonic 3 worse because it was designed with the spindash in mind? How so? Would Sonic 3 be better if you took the spindash out? How so? What would you change in Sonic 3 if you had designed it with the spindash missing? How is that better than what we got?

The answer to these questions will form a convincing argument that the spindash was a mistake beyond "I don't like it".


I'm not going to play devil's advocate anymore because a-) that's not my point to make b-) you're not going to listen anyway because you're going to reduce the arguments to "I don't like it" even though that's not, again, what anyone said. The spindash, it is pointed out by the op, is a mistake in the circumstance of a game that was built with building speed from stuff in the environment, and with it, you don't need to use slopes to gather speed, which would break the framework within which Sonic 1's level design was made. Thus, the spindash changed the philosophy of the game, and it doesn't matter whether I want to use it or not.

Now I don't think it's a mistake. Like I said, I think it's very much in line with the original concept. I also think we should discuss in good faith though.
This post has been edited by Palas: 28 November 2018 - 08:45 AM

#40 User is offline Kail 

Posted 28 November 2018 - 09:01 AM

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When I was a kid I loved the spin dash because my goal was never to beat the game in the most stylish, fastest way but rather to explore and have fun. I'm in the camp that not every game should be inherently difficult/challenging without any options for newer/younger/casual players. Nintendo's Super Guide/Funky Mode/Casual Mode/Etc that they've been doing for the last decade is great. Players who want a challenge still get it, but those who are more casual can still enjoy the game. I don't think the spindash compares to Funky Mode, but its an element that gives the player more opportunities for speed and its extremely satisfying even if you shoot yourself into a bottomless pit.

#41 User is online Aerosol 

Posted 28 November 2018 - 09:15 AM

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View PostPalas, on 28 November 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

View PostCovarr, on 27 November 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

...Well, yes, but these matters are intertwined. The level design is more or less everything in Sonic, and it's what gives the abilities value or not.

Them being intertwined really just furthers the point, though, that the move itself can hardly be blamed alone if it's in a game that fails to utilize it properly. If they are intertwined, it's completely reasonable to say "The spindash in Sonic 1 was a mistake because it was added after the fact to a game that wasn't designed for it", or "The spindash in Sonic 2 was a mistake because the level design didn't really make good or enough use of it", but it's rather not reasonable to say the spindash was a mistake altogether, particularly when the following several games (3/K/M) made quite good use of it.


The problem here is that if we go by this view, we're going to fall into an empty discussion about things being good as long as they're good. Given that 3&K made good use of the spindash and 1 made good use of something else that didn't have the spindash, OP is proposing that 1's framework for level design is better because it doesn't have the spindash, and therefore the emphasis on using the stage to gain speed is stronger - not that you can't make a good game with the spindash, or build a functioning framework with it. Now, do I agree with that? I don't know, I don't think so. But the discussion is not simply the spindash, as an ability detached from everything else, being good or not.

View PostAerosol, on 28 November 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

View PostPalas, on 27 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

No, see, what I'm saying is that the discussion is not about personal preference. And that the argument about "not using it if you don't like" is not the point, as it's a rather strange argument to be made in a discussion that is simply not about that. The equivalency is on point.


Every argument I've read in this thread as to why the spindash is a mistake boils down to "I don't like it". Not a single convincing argument as to why it's detrimental to the gameplay as an optional move has been made thus far.

In other words, if you're going to say it's a mistake, you have to show how it negatively impacts the game whether you use it or not. That hasn't happened. Except one person said "it takes longer to look down now" which is such a minor beef but ok.

I don't like the Super Peelout. At all. I see no point to it, especially when there's no control lock with a rolling jump in CD. But I wouldn't call it a mistake. I just don't like it.

Edit: And like Covarr said, it's not enough to say it was mistake in specific circumstances either. The topic is "was the spindash an outright mistake", not "was the spindash in this circumstance a mistake". So at the very least you have to show how it's negatively impacted the direction of comparable games in the franchise.

Is Sonic 3 worse because it was designed with the spindash in mind? How so? Would Sonic 3 be better if you took the spindash out? How so? What would you change in Sonic 3 if you had designed it with the spindash missing? How is that better than what we got?

The answer to these questions will form a convincing argument that the spindash was a mistake beyond "I don't like it".


I'm not going to play devil's advocate anymore because a-) that's not my point to make b-) you're not going to listen anyway because you're going to reduce the arguments to "I don't like it" even though that's not, again, what anyone said. The spindash, it is pointed out by the op, is a mistake in the circumstance of a game that was built with building speed from stuff in the environment, and with it, you don't need to use slopes to gather speed, which would break the framework within which Sonic 1's level design was made. Thus, the spindash changed the philosophy of the game, and it doesn't matter whether I want to use it or not.

Now I don't think it's a mistake. Like I said, I think it's very much in line with the original concept. I also think we should discuss in good faith though.


Your argument doesn't make the point you think it does. Having the spindash doesn't mean the environment and terrain is made irrelevant. "Changing the philosophy of the game" is even more subjective an argument than "the spindash is a mistake", and that's before you consider whether changing the philosophy of the game is even a negative or positive development. That sounds like "I don't like it being available" to me.

Hence why I keep simplifying your counterpoints and the majority of the arguments against the spindash in this thread to "I don't like it". I'm not arguing in "bad faith". If you played Sonic 1 without spindashing even if you could, it's the same damn game than if you played it without the spindash being available. The only mechanical difference is that it takes longer for you to look down. So why is it a mistake for it to be available?

There's nothing (of note or worth) you could do with the spindash that you can't do without, and this is true up to Sonic 3 where you only need it to operate simple gimmicks. So what's the problem , exactly? What would Sonic 3 look like without a spindash, and how is that better?
This post has been edited by Aerosol: 28 November 2018 - 09:18 AM

#42 User is offline Palas 

Posted 28 November 2018 - 09:51 AM

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View PostAerosol, on 28 November 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

Your argument doesn't make the point you think it does. Having the spindash doesn't mean the environment and terrain is made irrelevant. "Changing the philosophy of the game" is even more subjective an argument than "the spindash is a mistake", and that's before you consider whether changing the philosophy of the game is even a negative or positive development. That sounds like "I don't like it being available" to me.

Hence why I keep simplifying your counterpoints and the majority of the arguments against the spindash in this thread to "I don't like it". I'm not arguing in "bad faith". If you played Sonic 1 without spindashing even if you could, it's the same damn game than if you played it without the spindash being available. The only mechanical difference is that it takes longer for you to look down. So why is it a mistake for it to be available?

There's nothing (of note or worth) you could do with the spindash that you can't do without, and this is true up to Sonic 3 where you only need it to operate simple gimmicks. So what's the problem , exactly? What would Sonic 3 look like without a spindash, and how is that better?


You being so hellbent on boiling the discussion down to all possible personal experiences, as in "what did ever happen to you or anyone that could say it's a detriment to the gameplay?", is why your arguments are being thrown at no one, and you're not being part of the discussion proposed by the thread. Once again, the argument you're making could apply to any ability, including - I don't know - shooting badniks with a gun. Because you "don't have to use it". Everything is always optional, including playing the game in the first place. So that's not the point.

The spindash being there (supposedly) detracts from the game being what it originally was made for, and that's using the terrain to move around more efficiently instead of picking up max speed on the spot. You can not use it, but why would you not use it? It's so much easier to use the spindash. Why would you throw yourself at badniks if you could just shoot them?

And then you could have some sort of Sonic-oriented Nuzlocke challenge where you finish Sonic 3 without ever spindashing unless there's absolutely no other way to go. You'd go back to a slope and roll instead of spindashing whenever something stopped you, or just start running again from where you are, and maybe get caught by a badnik shooting at you, which wouldn't have happened if you were going faster. That might be the Original Sonic Experience. But then that's not the game that they sold you, right? That's a game you're playing, within the game they sold you, and maybe it's not as effective as Sonic 1 because then Sonic 3 was built with the spindash in mind.

It being available makes the game different. The framework for the level design changed, and how every player will approach the game before having to make self-inflicted challenges changes too. OP thinks that's bad. I don't.
This post has been edited by Palas: 28 November 2018 - 10:55 AM

#43 User is online Aerosol 

Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:42 AM

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I asked a couple for times how Sonic 3 would be different if it were designed without the spindash in mind precisely for the reasons you're criticising my argument.

Guns in Shadow the Hedgehog were a mistake. I like the shooting, generally, but it would be a better game if it condensed what was good about Sonic Heroes' character switching mechanic into a similar one that highlighted the characters unique abilities while refining the basic movement mechanics exemplified by the 'speed' characters in Sonic Heroes.

There. Now somebody do that for Sonic 3 without the spindash so I can hear an argument that's not just "I don't like the spindash being available cause I'm tempted to use it even though I don't like it". How, exactly, does Sonic 3 change without the spindash? How does even Sonic 2 change without it? And how is Sonic 1 made different just by making the spindash available?

To say that the spindash was a mistake is to say that Sonic 3 is worse than Sonic 1, since the former was designed with the move in mind from the beginning. That might be the opinion OP has but I want to hear the argument of how Sonic 3 is worse. And "I just don't like it as much" is not a compelling argument. That's just a statement of preference in which case...ok. There's literally nothing to discuss.

Also it's arguable that the original premise of the game was using the environment to go fast. I remember Naka saying something like he made Sonic fast cause he hates how slow Mario was and he wanted to just get the first level over with quickly since he knew it well. The spindash then is a natural extension of that idea since, once you know Green Hill well, the spindash can get you through quick as shit. Quicker than you ever could without it. And with the drop dash? Even faster. I wonder if OP thinks the drop dash was a mistake too.
This post has been edited by Aerosol: 28 November 2018 - 10:43 AM

#44 User is offline BouncekDeLemos 

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I don't think there's ever a way to argue something subjective as something objective. lol

With that said, one simple added move does change the dynamic of everything via the natural evolution of each sequel, regardless of a person's particular play style.

Whether or not that person uses it is a different story, but the way the levels are made, they're structured around the entire moveset for the player to fully utilize. Some players may find that intrusive and don't like change, probably because the effect moves have on the level design. Example would be that in Sonic 1, most large slopes fall from the top left to bottom right (Marble Zone, Spring Yard Zone and Star Light Zone come to mind), encouraging movement to go forward, possibly with the regular spin attack relying on momentum to gain speed and to help damage badniks. Sonic 2 is a bit reversed, with the slopes going bottom left to the right up more, encouraging the spindash. If a player chooses not to use the spindash, it may be a bit more difficult since they'd probably have to rely more on momentum and springboards to go forward, maybe even more so than in Sonic 1.

And yes, I say "maybe" because there's no one side or the other on this. Everybody has a different way they go about playing the game, with a different skillset and play style.

Sonic 3 (and Knuckles) is a bit more harder for me to argue since it's a mixed bag, it's much like Sonic 2 but with longer chasms and a teeny bit more weaponized badniks (encouraging more use of the instashield rather more than anything)

#45 User is online Aerosol 

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View PostBouncekDeLemos, on 28 November 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

I don't think there's ever a way to argue something subjective as something objective. Lol


Ok? I'm asking for a compelling argument, not an objective one.

Quote

With that said, one simple added move does change the dynamic of everything via the natural evolution of each sequel, regardless of a person's particular play style.

Whether or not that person uses it is a different story, but the way the levels are made, they're structured around the entire moveset for the player to fully utilize. Some players may find that intrusive and don't like change, probably because the effect moves have on the level design. Example would be that in Sonic 1, most large slopes fall from the top left to bottom right (Marble Zone, Spring Yard Zone and Star Light Zone come to mind), encouraging movement to go forward, possibly with the regular spin attack relying on momentum to gain speed and to help damage badniks. Sonic 2 is a bit reversed, with the slopes going bottom left to the right up more, encouraging the spindash. If a player chooses not to use the spindash, it may be a bit more difficult since they'd probably have to rely more on momentum and springboards to go forward, maybe even more so than in Sonic 1.

And yes, I say "maybe" because there's no one side or the other on this. Everybody has a different way they go about playing the game, with a different skillset and play style.

Sonic 3 (and Knuckles) is a bit more harder for me to argue since it's a mixed bag, it's much like Sonic 2 but with longer chasms and a teeny bit more weaponized badniks (encouraging more use of the instashield rather more than anything)


I'm not really disputing any of this. I'm asking for an example, like I gave with Shadow the Hedgehog. You've given some with Sonic 2, and conceded that Sonic 3's usage of the spindash isn't really problematic at all. If you want to say that the spindash influences level design in a way that's detrimental to the ethos of the game, Sonic 3 is the one to criticize though. Have you got some pointed criticisms of Sonic 3 level design that would be solved by not having the spindash?
This post has been edited by Aerosol: 28 November 2018 - 01:02 PM

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