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I made s documentary film about Sonic the Hedgehog

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Phugolz, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. Billy

    Billy

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    Would it be out of line to say that this video, obviously created to incite a reaction, is being taken too seriously? I just thought it was funny, and moved on. Why is this video getting paragraphs of text in response? Someone please explain.
     
  2. Aesculapius Piranha

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    I wasn't a fan of the Game Gear games, so you are asking the wrong person on that count. In Sonic 3, the only thing he was good for was griefing anyone playing Sonic by lifting them up and killing them at opportune moments. Flight added nothing to gameplay because his vertical movement felt sluggish in a game about speed (The same applies to the wall climbing of Knuckles.) He was even more worthless than in 2 because you actually had a choice to not use him in the split screen racing, as his one true merrit in 2 is that he gave Sonic somebody to race, even though he has since been replaced by more fitting and less annoying characters.

    That said though, in regard to the "Sonic's shitty friends" thing, the problem is less that the character designs suck, and more that most of them have not been utilized to enrich the world any or have been very poorly characterized by the Adventure series. They do nothing to support the game's original underlying simplistic theme of mascot versus mad scientist. They are just random furries thrown in there for the sake of random furries. One reason Sonic CD worked so well is that the characters they introduced were introduced for a reason. Amy Rose was the princess you had to save from Metal Sonic who was the proverbial black knight. Knuckles was introduced to give Sonic an alike adversary. Tails was introduced to give merrit to the 2 player mode, and the designers decided to throw in someone who was only cute instead of another character to compliment Sonic's cuteness and attitude, which was a mistake in presentation. Chaotix were interesting character designs invented for character variation in a game that was kinda bad and were ultimately the first truly pointless characters (though not all as lame as Tails). Fast forward to the adventure games where we learn that Sonic team can't write a plot for shit and SOA hires terribad voice actors. All characters invented and utilized at this point are victims of poor characterization, and some get it worse than others. Beyond style, something worse has suffered since the 3D era, which is the gameplay, and only recently SEGA is starting to get the hang of what Sonic should be like. Someone else mentioned all the Sonic-only games that have come out recently, but from what I am hearing as I have not gotten to play Generations yet, that is the only one of them that has been worth a damn (and I'm even iffy on that.)

    I'd much prefer that SEGA figures out the core gameplay that Sonic should have before wasting time with trying to properly utilize his shitty friends in the simplistic way they should be used.
     
  3. Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    Well then I disagree with you, but thank you for replying, at least.

    As someone who plays games for escapism, I like to fly, I think it was a great addition to Sonic, and I didn't like Sonic 1 or CD, the former because it felt lackluster compared to Sonic 3K (Which was my first game, so my opinion of anything before it was pretty much ruined) and the latter because even though it had interesting level design, it was too hard to explore because of the damned time limit which I have never liked in Sonic, never seen a point in, and remember getting time-deaths as a kid because I wanted to run around the entire level. It basically punishes players for exploration, and that is something I cannot abide, but that's a different rant. My co-op experience with Tails was with my cousin, we were team-oriented kinds of people, we didn't "grief" each other, and it actually made the game much more enjoyable for both of us than just playing as Sonic alone.

    But when it comes to playing as Tails, maybe I just have a bias. I don't like playing as Sonic, I think he's underpowered compared to everyone else and I didn't even know what his power was until I got into the comics in 2001. (I started playing Sonic when I was 9, in 2000, on the PC) And considering my first console was a playstation in '99, my exposure to platformers before that was Mario and whatever my cousin had, and I was used to platform heroes having some kind of ability that was more interesting than a split-second flash when you press jump twice, I think my lack of appreciation for Sonic is pretty justified, in fact, the only reason I started playing Sonic 3 was because one of the characters could fly. And while we're on the subject of oddities in games, I want to know what genius at SEGA thought a great superpower for a character in a platformer, a genre heavily designed around jumping and exploring, would be running. I have never thought Sonic's ability was useful, let alone interesting, and has always been poorly planned out. It wouldn't be so bad if he could do something else, but the closest we've ever gotten to that are the shields in Sonic 3 which are temporary and not inherent. At least the homing attack in the 3D games felt more like something useful and applicable to the genre. I mean hell, even a double-jump would be an improvement. And then there's the spindash, which didn't carry any relevance to Sonic in the Genesis games because everyone else could do it and was nerfed and/or deleted from the modern ones. The one time I found the spindash to be interesting was the pinball segments of casino levels (Except the one in Heroes, but that whole level sucked anyway. Least favorite level in the entire game.) and otherwise, Sonic is too simple. The modern games are more like racing games which probably suits him better but implementing other characters to that is going to be a bitch. You'll have to force everyone to go at that insanely ridiculous speed (I get motion sickness just watching playthroughs) or you'll have to do the BS thing the Adventure games did and give everyone their own levels. Or, if Sonic team were to put the effort into it, which they won't, because they're Sonic Team, they'll design all the levels around the characters available and give them their own paths and goals and objectives but that would involve a much more open-world approach to level-design and my faith in Sonic Team is so low at this point that I think they're incapable of making anything more than a straight line with 2D sections and loops.

    Speaking of level design, there's a reason Tails Adventures is my favorite Sonic game outside of it starring my favorite character. The levels weren't "Lol go straight and score points," you actually had to EXPLORE them and there was no bullshit time limit. (Why do you need a fucking time limit to go fast anyway? Why can't it be a choice of the player?) You were always going back to levels (Boo hoo backtracking, someone will say this and I just want to say that it's not always bad, I have seen examples of where it is bad, but I bet none of the backtracking naysayers bitch about Zelda's design.) and some of the items and secrets you found weren't mandatory to beat the game, but were interesting bonuses. It wasn't a "traditional" Sonic game (Partly why I like it) but it took a character that had people scratching their heads with what to do with (Since, as much as I love to fly, flying is a bit of a trick in a platformer) and did something with him that best suits him; gave him the power and necessity of exploration in his own game. He is the perfect character for slower gameplay but gameplay more focused on exploration. I think that if they re-add him into Sonic, he should have that focus. If everyone plays like Sonic, it would be incredibly boring to me, I don't like zooming through levels at sickening pace, I like to stop and mess with everything, stare at everything, touch everything and take my time. Sure, people could use Sonic and have a path laid out with tight speed sections and tricky platforming and fast-paced gameplay and that's fine, but fuck if I want every character to play that way, especially ones with the kind of potential Tails and Knuckles have.

    I know people don't like the Adventure-style treasure hunting Knuckles went through, and even I will say that Adventure 2 broke a lot of things about it, but if that base concept were completely redone for Knuckles, it would fit his abilities perfectly. although even a massive collectorfag like myself did not like the digging, or the radar, or the even more broken rader in SA2, or the level designs in SA2... Basically, I think it needs to be reviewed and done in a less broken way. has anyone at Sonic Team ever played a 3D platformer before? Why couldn't they do that?
     
  4. Metal Man88

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    Good golly miss molly, that's a lot of text about imaginary characters featured in games of questionable quality.

    This was an opinion reel done by the guy who made it to kill time and have fun, not a scientific debunking of the scene as a whole. That it causes so much wacky arguing is simply a bonus that the author most likely intended by touching on so many controversial subjects in one video.
     
  5. I mean, this IS Sonic Retro

    The Sonic community has always mystified me ever since I first started lurking years and years ago. I'm always surprised both at its ability to come up with lots of neat shit and its ability to overscrutinize almost everything
     
  6. Volpino

    Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    I like how a bunch of trolls say this stuff right after I post, every time. >_> I said I thought he was trolling, but a couple people started taking him seriously, and the people that actually believe his points seriously piss me off, especially since most of them don't make any sense.
     
  7. XCubed

    XCubed

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    tl;dr --- jk.

    For the first time, I've actually skipped over reading posts in a topic. Way too much text for my patience. I've found the following to be the most important piece of information from the various walls of text:



    No offense, but seeing as Sonic has been the only one to go super since S3&K (Sonic Rush doesn't count...but even if it did, Rush Adventure was 5 years ago!), to call him "underpowered" is mystifying. Sure...he can't get too tired to fly, he can't fish, he can't hit things with hammers, he doesn't have a Chao do all his dirty work, and he doesn't punch and dig for garbage.

    Btw, I don't count the comics for this.....it's more like a professionally done FANFIC. :colbert:
     
  8. Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    In general, I just find his gameplay to be boring compared to everyone else. I care more about form than function, aesthetics than practicality, and what something in a game looks like compared to what it actually does. I get the feeling a lot of people here are technically minded about things - that's fine, but just try to picture how Sonic looks to me compared to Tails or Knuckles. Let me try to picture what people see in Sonic 3; Tails' vertical acceleration is much slower than his horizontal, and the angle at which his object travels emulates gravity, to a degree I.E. he's slow when going up. Here's what I see: "HE CAN FUCKING FLY." I don't care how mechanically broken that is, it's fucking awesome! Super-human, fantasy-fueling awesome. Now I think about Sonic, well, what can he do? What can he do that everyone else can't? Well, there's the shields, but you can lose those, everyone else's abilities are permanent. He can turn super, but so can Knuckles and every other hedgehog, and he can turn hyper and get a homing attack of some kind, which is kind of cool but you have to get really far in the game just to be able to do that, everyone else's abilities are unlocked from the start, I don't have to wait for them to be fun.

    The only reason he looks so specialized now is because he's the only character you can play as, and that's boring, especially since my idea of fun isn't holding forward and occasionally jumping on enemies. (Also hence why I haven't gotten a Sonic game since 2007; I thought 3D was supposed to mean LESS linear.)

    Now, there are people who get off on speed in the same way I get off on flying, and that's fine, I'm gonna attempt to use my love of flying to describe their love of going really, really fast. They like the rush of it, the feeling of release it gives them, and how empowered it makes them feel, right? But didn't you get that from the Genesis games like Sonic 3? That accommodated at least 2 kinds of playstyle and you could go fast and feel a rush in it, right? I'm assuming that's what the "Sonic is about speed" thing is about, but at the same time, I could get the rush that exploring an entire level gives me (before that fucking time limit goes off. Fuck you time limit) and nobody had to have a problem with that. Isn't Sonic 3K supposed to be some magic thing the SEGA gods sent down for everyone anyway?

    I think they should just make a huge 3D open-world designed level like some late 90s 3D platformers had and then cut a line through it for Sonic so people can go really fucking fast. No, I'm not discriminating against Sonic, but compared to Tails and Knuckles, he's way easier to design a level for, if you designed the level for those two first and then thought about implements for Sonic, it could work.
     
  9. Metal Man88

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    Ah, but you see, if I was trolling, I would have scanned your huge paragraph for things which annoy you and advocate for them. No, that is not my goal.

    Instead I just want to note that you need not get so worked up over it. You can enjoy the games that you like and hate others without having to justify it to anyone. It's cool if you hate Sonic and want to play as Tails—just don't be surprised when other people don't get it and will oppose any attempts to say that is "the right way" or if you get too in depth about it.

    I just wish people focused more on having fun and less on trying to find ways to get mad and hate one another.
     
  10. Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    I don't think it's the "right way", but as per Sonic 3 and a bunch of other games that are apparently not popular enough to mention (Advance 3) I do not see why their way has to be the only way either. Both ways have co-existed in games before but now only their way has been present in modern games, the last 3 never appealing to me whatsoever, but being directed at the people that, for some reason, couldn't stand "my way" enough to bitch it right out the door, and that's what pisses me off.

    I have not had "fun" with any of the three released games since 2008, I think I have justification in being pissed about that, and then fans are still bitching. Thanks for continuously succeeding in fucking shit up that I used to really enjoy about Sonic, guys, really fucking appreciate it. /Sarcasm
     
  11. Metal Man88

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    The issue is complaining will not change the games or other people's opinions. SEGA haphazardly samples for people's opinions, then ignores it and does what they want anyway. There is nothing to be gained from the arguing—the games are never going to be the same. Nor will they even stay consistent.

    I have a theory. The old games were better not because of there being pixie dust in the 90s that made everything better, but rather that what SEGA did was consumed without a barrage of screaming fans dissecting everything. Doing so removes whatever mystery or magical quantity a game had. As such, the quality did not just go down due to mistakes, but also due to fans.

    All of them, including us.

    And so, even if SEGA made THE Sonic 4/Adventure 3/whatever everyone wanted, it would be hated by at least one vocal part of the fanbase, thrown aside as "bad", and thus fit the narrative many believe is always true.

    It's better to just go nay or yay to each game and move on. Nothing is accomplished by tearing it to bits. No one is listening...
     
  12. Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    Or maybe because of how inconsistent Sonic actually is. At least Nintendo keeps (most) of their inconsistencies to separate franchises (even if half of them star Mario anyway :V) I mean fuck, I didn't even become a fan of Sonic through the games, I liked the games as a kid, but now I find them lacking compared to other games, mostly because of their dated feel to me, I got into it through the comics (The things apparently the OP hates for whatever fucking reason, maybe because "LOL TALKING ANIMALS NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY" or whatever) which are pretty damn inconsistent compared to the games, I got into the games later, on Adventure. Sure, it wasn't like the comics, but it had a good story (in my opinion) and I loved the chao, the Adventure Fields, and MOSTLY everyone's gameplay although racing as Tails was stupid and Amy and Gamma could sod off, but that game felt modern to me (I played the Gamecube version in '03) and like, I don't know, those dated Genesis games were finally brought into the modern world with open levels and a story with voice acting and generally like it was more in-line with other franchises I really liked in '03 such as Zelda and Spyro, although I played Adventure 2 Battle a year before, I hated it! The chao were better, but that was the ONLY thing lacking in Adventure DX, it felt more like a "free-form" game, if you catch my drift.

    And then '06 happened and fucked everything up and now the games have suffered what I view as a major downgrade.

    Thing about Tails Adventures was that it actually felt pretty on-par with the 5th/6th generation when I played it because of how not-linear it was and how "free-form" it felt, again, if you catch my drift.
     
  13. Phugolz

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    It wasn't created to troll, that's just a pleasant side effect
     
  14. Aesculapius Piranha

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    Fans like to blame fans because one of SEGA's strong points is listening to what fans generally want and putting it in a game. I mean, on paper, Heroes sounds a lot like what fans were asking for. On paper Shadow the Hedgehog was good pandering to the Sonic CulT crowd who wanted their games dark like their coffee. Sonic 06 panders to all the DeviantArt people with a furry fettish who draw lots of fanwank recolors and pretend they own the copyright. I mean, if not for the fans, these games would have been great if SEGA just listened to themselves, right?

    Wrong.

    Fan pandering can't fix unpolished and buggy games, poor writing, poor presentation, and a general lack of direction, which is something the Sonic series has suffered from ever since it made the jump from the 2D platform. Fans have NOTHING to do with what is wrong with the games. The old games weren't made of pixie dust and sparklies or whatevs. They were just shining gems of the tired platforming genre. They were good GAMES.
     
  15. Nova

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    I missed the 'on paper' bit there for a second and was about to say.

    Just stop giving super-serious responses and in-depth analysis of this video (not you Piranha, this is just a general comment). It was created for a laugh, it's intended to give you a laugh and while I won't presume to speak for Phugolz, some people are taking this shit way, way too seriously.
     
  16. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Phugolz, thank you for the hilarious video and topic.
     
  17. Kogen

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    I decided to watch the whole thing instead of just 10 minutes, so here is my IGN-style review:

    • Awful commercial soundtrack made worse by using awful remixes
    • Music just stops at one random point for around 5 minutes, nice work
    • Dozens of missing games, very comprehensive
    • Horrible, mixed video quality; parts just spliced together poorly; the emulator footage was dreadful (mice on screen, video jumping, etc); looks like all the games were played by an autistic child
    • 32X has games like 'Virtua Racing', 'Virtua Fighter', 'After Burner Complete', and 'Space Harrier'; obviously all great games a Sonic fanturd would not know about
    • Saturn has better hardware than all of its competition
    • PS2, XBox, and GC also all suck
    • 'Knuckles Chaotix' is not even that bad; 'Tails Adventures' is better than most of the games in the series, nice of you to not even document it in a documentary
    • Static is annoying, so is the colour test screen
    • Volume goes everywhere, awkward flow at the end
    • Fully accurate review of 'NiGHTS into Dreams...'
     
  18. Metal Man88

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    Ah. But I never said SEGA was listening to the fans at any point (outside of flawed, non-representative moments where they ignored whatever was said anyway). Instead I said their endless complaining made it impossible to enjoy new games because no matter what the game was, they would find "flaws" in it and then talk with the same sort of highly emphatic, angry tone you have right there.

    So actually, you just proved me right. Should I dare imply that all that angry fist shaking at games which were never going to be flawless masterpieces in the first place was unnecessary, people will volunteer to show how useless it is right before everyone else.

    You see, this has nothing to do with SEGA but rather trying to simply play the game without a bunch of preconceived notions inserted by a ton of sources beforehand. You know, just like how it was back when the "classic" games were made? Hm, isn't that funny. No "classic" game has been made since the internet became available to everyone. Doesn't that strike you as meaningful?

    But, I shall leave you to your bitter anger at the actions of a company which neither really cares nor understands anything because all it wants, like other companies, is to make money. Me... I have other things to do with my time than tilt at windmills.
     
  19. Aesculapius Piranha

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    The fallacy here is that you use the word "find" as though you have to look for the flaws. The flaws in the Sonic games find you. Amazingly enough, Sonic Team is not the only fanbase who has die hard fans who dissect things, and yet somehow other developers manage.

    k

    Corelation does not mean causation. I find it infinitely more likely that Sonic Team has been pumipng out shitty games because they failed to adapt the the changing landscape of the gaming industry with the jump from a 2D standard to 3D standard.

    Good for you. Keep on with that "blaming the victim" mentallity. I'm sure she was asking for it because she was wearing that ribbon in her hair.
     
  20. Kogen

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    Better put a frikken laser beam device on that shark's head if it is going to be fighting a robot.