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Knuckles in Sonic 2 discussion

#16 User is offline SonicAD 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 03:02 PM

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524:

You lose all of your rings when you go into the special stage, instead of keeping them as in the Final.

#17 User is offline Puto 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 05:41 PM

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View PostNorym, on Feb 24 2008, 04:17 AM, said:

View PostPuto, on Feb 23 2008, 11:02 PM, said:

In final S2K, they added a check in knuckles' jump routine for demo mode, and if such they set the jump height to sonic's jump height, which fixes around half the demos. However, they didn't re-insert the mid-air speed cap in demo mode, so the EHZ and ARZ demos still screw up.

Ah, thank you for clarifying that for me. So as I understand it, the game still reads the demos straight from the S2 data, just with the workaround applied to make Knuckles jump like sonic (but not move as fast as him in the air), and it wasn't created yet as of 0524.

I guess I'll check to see where this was added (if it was in any of these protos) and edit it back in this post later. ^^

EDIT - That was quick.... I guess they added it by 0606. Speaking of 0606, they added the Knuckles logo by that build.

Not exactly. The demos are in the upmem chip, but they're still the same as in Sonic 2, AKA Sonic Team were too lazy to record new demos.

#18 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 05:43 PM

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o_O In that case, why didn;t they save the space and read the data from S2?

#19 User is offline Puto 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 05:50 PM

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There's shitloads of data in S2K that could have been used from S2, but wasn't. My guess is, they had 256kb of size, and as long as it fit there, there was no need to cut it down any further, so once they got to 256kb, they just stopped there.

#20 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 05:59 PM

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Fair enough I guess. I suppose the only other size they could have done it in was 128, and do 1MBit chips even exist?

#21 User is offline Nemesis 

Posted 24 February 2008 - 06:01 PM

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For any data they wanted to read from the S2 rom they had to worry about calling from different locations for different revisions, had to obtain the correct locations for all the revisions, and it just generally makes the process more complicated, and introduces a whole set of potential problems. They wouldn't do it unless there was a significant space advantage. Like Puto said, they had 256kb to play with. Not much point reducing size if they were already under the target.

#22 User is offline AJ 187 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 03:07 AM

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View PostAJ 187, on Feb 23 2008, 08:20 PM, said:

Sega is bad with names


This was also in 524 but Knuckles is also called Sonic on a level clear.

Sorry to bump for such a trivial fact, but yeah.

#23 User is offline LocalH 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 03:51 AM

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Build 0608 is the first to contain the KiS2-specific codes (01 09 09 04 01 00 01 08 and 01 06 07 07 07 02 01 06). The full 0524 build contains the original S2 codes and it gives Super Knux the yellow Super Sonic pallet and star trails. Pic coming soon.

Edit:

Posted Image

#24 User is offline Uberham 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 03:55 AM

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Stupid question, but what happens if you try and patch one of the proto's we have?

Will it give us anything playable, or (and this is most likely) leave us with a little less HD space and an unplayable ROM?

#25 User is offline LocalH 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 04:03 AM

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It's my belief that all the UPMEM protos will work with any S&K ROM that supports lockon, since all S&K does is a JMP $300000, so it doesn't matter which UPMEM build is there.

Edit: Also, in 0524, when Knuckles reverts from his Super form, he uses Sonic's palette. Due to the change in how his Super form is activated, there is no Super bug after the endpost.

#26 User is offline Puto 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 04:05 AM

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Actually it does, since S2K grabs Knuckles' art, mappings and DPLCs straight from the S&K ROM.

#27 User is offline LocalH 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 04:11 AM

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Ok well, is it known which ROMs the prototype UPMEMs work with? Are they pretty much tied to the same builds on the S&K side? Because we have build numbers for S&K to match all the UPMEM protos.

Edit: Ok, I just built prototype KiS2 ROMs using matching S&K and UPMEM builds. The cheats vary between the ROMs. 0524, of course, has level select enabled by default. 0606 uses UDDDU, 0608 uses UUDDLRLR, and 0610 and later use UUUDDDLRLR like the final. 0606 has the proper Super Knuckles pallet, and he reverts back to the proper Knuckles pallet after the endpost.

#28 User is offline Nemesis 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:07 AM

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View PostPuto, on Feb 25 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

Actually it does, since S2K grabs Knuckles' art, mappings and DPLCs straight from the S&K ROM.

I don't know the S&K rom very well, but I do know they have lots of segments in the rom padded out to particular boundaries. This prevents minor, or even fairly significant changes to the rom requiring a change to the base locations of any of these segments. I would suspect they worked out these boundaries early on in the piece, so that all data they need to load from the S2K upmem is accessible at a known base, which doesn't change beetween revisions of the S&K rom. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think it likely that you would be able to combine S2K with any version of the S&K rom and have it work.

#29 User is offline Uberham 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 08:46 AM

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So if you combine a proto S2, with a proto S&K/plain S&K and use a proto patch, will the patched rom inherit the bugs from both proto rom/patches or just one or the other?

#30 User is offline Nemesis 

Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:21 AM

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The 256kb S2K upmem rom contains all the code for S2&K, so everything that determines how the game works is contained in this rom. That includes bugs. The S&K and S2 roms are only used for their data. For example, all the tiles and mapping data for Knuckles come from the S&K rom, while the tiles and maps for the levels come from the S2 rom.

Note that while you should be able to combine any version of S&K to build the S2&K rom, the same is not true of the S2 rom. You can only combine one of the final releases of the S2 rom to build S2&K. This is because the data in the S2 rom is not based at known addresses like in S&K, but is in slightly different locations for different builds of the game. The startup code in the S&K rom which checks for locked on games reads the serial number of the game from the header, to determine whether it is a known build of S2, and if it is, which locations to read from when loading data from the rom. Beta versions of S2 will have a different serial number, and won't be recognised as S2 at all. It would be like you locked on any random non-sonic game. Even if the serial numbers did match, the game would just crash horribly due to the data not being in the places where the S2K upmem tries to read it from.

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