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The spindash was a mistake

#16 User is offline XCubed 

Posted 23 November 2018 - 09:52 AM

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Show me a platforming game where the protagonist does not gain extra moves in the sequel. Sonic 1 was not the end all be all of Sonic's moveset. Unlike the drop dash (which is awesome), the spindash didn't replace a move that was there before. The move added to Sonic's true definition. However, the Sonic 1 ports with spindash are strange indeed. It's a very strange revision, but they figured they would add it for those used to it in every other Sonic game in existence.

#17 User is offline Master Emerald 

Posted 23 November 2018 - 02:47 PM

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The spindash a mistake? I bet you didn't like the Run button on every game released by Nintendo lol.

#18 User is offline 360 

Posted 23 November 2018 - 02:51 PM

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Have to disagree. The spin dash was one of the most ingenious and creative additions and mechanics added to Sonic ever. Sonic 2 felt like a true evolution as a result.
This post has been edited by 360: 23 November 2018 - 02:51 PM

#19 User is offline tokumaru 

Posted 24 November 2018 - 03:14 AM

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I'm pretty sure that more people got into Sonic through Sonic 2 than through Sonic 1 (based on years of reading posts here in the forum), so I guess it's no surprise that a lot of people hold the spindash in such high regard. It's always been a part of Sonic to them. Having started with Sonic 1 myself, I can kinda see where you're coming from though.

Back in the day, the spindash didn't feel like an unwelcome addition by any means, but I can see now how it may have cheapened the experience of navigating with Sonic a bit. Back in Sonic 1 you needed more than just a ramp to reach certain kinds of secret areas, you had to be able to reach that ramp at full speed using the level's geography and/or gimmicks, so it felt more like an accomplishment when you succeeded.

I wouldn't call the spindash a mistake though, because it ended up helping define what classic Sonic gameplay felt like. Sonic 1 was indeed a little rough around the edges... while it did introduce a lot of new ideas, it was still being held back by many paradigms of platform games from the time. Sonic 2 and 3 really helped with bringing Sonic to the next level and causing him to stand out from the rest, and the spindash was a part of that.

#20 User is offline jbr 

Posted 24 November 2018 - 04:17 PM

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For me, this:

View Postwinterhell, on 22 November 2018 - 03:03 AM, said:

Its infinitely more fun without.


is the crux of it. I definitely sit in the camp that supports the spindash because while it can help out novice players, and get you out of an awkward spot when you make a mistake, it does ruin the flow of the game. Therefore, the game becomes more fun as you learn not to rely on it.

I'm really glad it is there though because every now and then you make a balls up (e.g. you fall to the bottom of one of the rounded pits in CNZ with no momentum) and you don't have to try and build momentum up again to carry on. I can definitely see why they added it in to help new players.

EDIT: Just realised I'd already made my 20th post and been made a full member without realising! My proudest moment :')
This post has been edited by jbr: 24 November 2018 - 04:18 PM

#21 User is offline Vangar 

Posted 25 November 2018 - 05:11 AM

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The Spindash is an iconic and super useful move for Sonic. When they added a bunch of moves for Mario to help him navigate in 3D, no one said "oh they make the game easier so it was a mistake".

If you don't have momentum at the bottom of a ramp and or a loop, you do a quick spindash to get through. It's also great to get a quick boost when the level starts. I'd argue that the games are infinitely more fun with it, and not having it in sonic 1 is the mistake, albeit the levels aren't as well suited for it.

#22 User is offline OcelotBot 

Posted 25 November 2018 - 11:26 AM

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I'm a fan of the spin-dash. Most of the time it serves as an optional move (much like the drop-dash). If you don't have the momentum you need (or are not particularly skilled at the classic games) then it's a quick way of making it up a steep slope or round the (much liked although mostly time-wasting) loop-de-loops.

The need to use the spin-dash is rarely mandatory and, therefore, I've never found it harms the gameplay. The first Sonic game I played was Sonic 1, so playing without the spin-dash felt natural. That said, whenever I play the mobile remaster I always play with the spin-dash enabled even though I hardly ever us it. I mean, be honest; how many of you guys use the spin-dash in Marble zone, Spring Yard, Labyrinth or Scrap Brain? I'm guessing not many because the level design doesn't make it a necessity. I would only occasionally use it in Green Hill & Star Light. Oh and when I've played the SEGA Ages version I use the spin-dash even less because the drop-dash (which feels faster than in Mania) pretty much renders the spin-dash unnecessary/obsolete.

I of course use the spin-dash more in Sonic 2 due to it being more useful with the more open level design, more (including the super-peel out) in Sonic CD because of how important it is in gaining the speed you need to time-travel, and more in Sonic 3 & Mania because of the better level design and improvement/tweaks made to the spin-dash respectively.

The spin-dash is fun, never feels overpowered or out of place and is so easy to use. It's so much better than the momentum-killing homing-attack & spin-dash in Sonic 4 or the ridiculously overpowered spin-dash in Sonic Generations, which felt like nothing more than a bastardised version of the Modern boost gameplay.

#23 User is offline StaticMember 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 12:10 AM

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To me this seems like a case of someone confusing what is "challenge" in game design. The Spin-dash is a convenience tool, it doesn't speed up the game if you're playing optimally/good, but also means you don't have to slowly build up momentum if you mess up for any reason. Not really meant to be abused and the only people who would abuse it are speedrunners using it in ways that normal players wouldn't be able to do without much practice.

Gathering momentum is a challenge, but only in the sense of reaching secrets...

If you per se fail at getting over a loop or fall into one of those half pipes, going back to get enough speed or rolling back and forth isn't challenging...it's just slow which is your punishment, true. It's also just a thing you have to redo...which in platformers is always kinda tedious to some degree.

#24 User is offline Palas 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 09:39 AM

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View PostStaticMember, on 26 November 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

To me this seems like a case of someone confusing what is "challenge" in game design. The Spin-dash is a convenience tool, it doesn't speed up the game if you're playing optimally/good, but also means you don't have to slowly build up momentum if you mess up for any reason. Not really meant to be abused and the only people who would abuse it are speedrunners using it in ways that normal players wouldn't be able to do without much practice.

Gathering momentum is a challenge, but only in the sense of reaching secrets...

If you per se fail at getting over a loop or fall into one of those half pipes, going back to get enough speed or rolling back and forth isn't challenging...it's just slow which is your punishment, true. It's also just a thing you have to redo...which in platformers is always kinda tedious to some degree.


This isn't true because, in Sonic, being still or slow means you're at your most vulnerable. You have no way to deflect attacks or reach enemies that could hit you, so momentum is not only something you do to gain extra points - you have to gain it in order to survive. Being in a rolling/jumping state, and going fast, is how you can best answer to the stage's hazards.

So while I do agree that Sonic was designed without the spindash, I don't agree that the spindash is antithetical to the design because you have to stop in order to activate it. In Sonic's design, going slower (to understand the area you're in, for example) might be important to be able to go faster. The spindash is just that. You stop, so you can achieve max speed. It does put you at risk.

Also, Marble and Labyrinth are perfect as they are.

So OP is right, but also wrong.

EDIT: Although I will be the first to say I'm a huge fan of SCD's moveset. Peel Out being faster but still leaving you vulnerable, slower spindash etc. I like it. I know it's unpopular, and Sonic 2's spindash is fine too. But, conceptually speaking, I prefer SCD.
This post has been edited by Palas: 26 November 2018 - 09:47 AM

#25 User is offline Aerosol 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 10:55 AM

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It's a crutch for less-experienced players and a useful tool for more-experienced ones. It does no harm to the core design of the game at all. Just don't use it if you don't want to.

#26 User is offline Prototype 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 03:20 PM

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I can see both sides of the argument, and it's certainly interesting to think about. I personally love the spindash. In fact, since playing Mania Plus, I find myself really enjoying the different ways characters can move throughout the stage and the Spindash is just one of those things. Level design and physics will always be key in a good Sonic game and I see the Spindash as a fun way to explore the level and explore the physics. I still get a kick out of running up a wall on my right and using the physics to leap off to a higher platform on my left. It just feels satisfying.

I totally get people who prefer the games without the Spindash, but I suppose Spindash or not, all the levels have to be suitably designed around the character's ability (or lack thereof), so it's hard to be objective if a level in one game was designed around speed and a level in another was designed around blocky platforming.

Now, since the Spindash has become a mainstay in the "classic" games (to the point of porting the spindash back to S1), would it ever be feasible to make a new classic game without it? Certainly the more modern games have dropped it. One way I could see it figuring in is, instead of new power-ups, make more power-downs. Maybe have a fake shoe monitor that restricts your ability to spindash and reduce your moveset to the S1 moveset for a time period. It would make enemies and obstacles more dangerous and you'd have to rely on manually getting enough speed to navigate the level. That being said, the last time Sonic was given move-inhibiting shoes it was a disaster! :P

#27 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 04:51 PM

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This reminds me of something I saw in one video about Sonic 2006 (Warning: yelling).

Quote

He can't even do the fuckin' spin thing! That's the whole point of Sonic is he goes "mreew mreew mreew mreew mreew" and then fuckin' shoots! Now he just runs around with his arms hangin' out like an idiot!


This mindset isn't really out of the ordinary. To a lot of people, the spindash is a huge part of Sonic's identity, and what they like about the games. Regardless of its effect on the balance of the games, I do think it's fair to say that if a lot of people thought the spindash was fun, it can hardly be called a mistake. Ultimately, there is more to game design than just balance and difficulty curve, and a move's impact on how the character and game are perceived, especially by people newer to the franchise, cannot be discarded simply because the move can be abused.

#28 User is offline BouncekDeLemos 

Posted 26 November 2018 - 06:39 PM

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View PostXCubed, on 23 November 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

Show me a platforming game where the protagonist does not gain extra moves in the sequel.


Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japanese ver. a.k.a. "lost levels")

Granted, Luigi has a different weight to him and there's an extra power up (Or power "down"? Talking about the death mushrooms here...) and level hazards, but overall Mario was still the same. :P

#29 User is offline Aesculapius Piranha 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:25 AM

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I agree with the idea that spindash was a mistake. Am rather surprised to see so many others here agree. I feel like this is going to be an argument between those who loved and loathed Marble Zone, though. For some, trying to find the optimal path with a fast character feels fun when you get it right and have a feel for the momentum. For others holding right to win should be relatively unobstructed with a few amusements on the way to keep them distracted from the fact they are just holding right to win.
This post has been edited by Aesculapius Piranha: 27 November 2018 - 08:40 AM

#30 User is offline Aerosol 

Posted 27 November 2018 - 09:14 AM

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But I don't get it the spindash is rarely actually faster for any reason other than set pieces. The drop dash is more broken than the spindash. And if you're trying to tell me spindashing down the long water slides in Hydrocity isn't the tightest shit, we can't be friends.

I like Marble Zone. I also like the spindash, and would never try to use it in Marble Zone except in extreme, exploitative circumstances.

How is it an actual mistake? How does removing it make the game better, rather than just not using it if you don't like it? Cause all I'm seeing is "I personally don't like using it".

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