I think Sega was just testing the waters with this. Now it's been made completely clear that Taxman and Stealth can make great games that sell well. I doubt the next game they do will have nearly as much shoehorned-in old things.
Don't get too optimistic. I would not put it past SEGA to think that Mania sold well because it was full of old zones and not because it was a good game.
Surely the Mania team themselves understand what really made it great though. And as Zephyr said above, they are being given more and more freedom with each thing they do.
I have to agree with this but I don't think Mania is a Sonic 3.5 & Knuckles. Sonic 3 & Knuckles had something that most of the other classic games lacked; plot. Sonic 1 lacked much of anything besides "Stop Robotnik" and Sonic 2 started out the same until Sky Chase zone. Sonic 3 & Knuckles really built upon this and used dynamic transitions and events for the entire game that helped it to be the game it is today. Sonic Mania begins in the same way but unfortunately the time travel teleportation gimmick is back and this really hinders the plot. This being said, it was still possible for more events to take place especially for the transitions (Fade to black? Seriously?). Obviously Sonic 3 & Knuckles had new and original levels and a unique story for Knuckles. (Mania had a few paths, 2 bosses and no true final boss for Knuckles) How much of this is Sega's fault is unknown, but the shoehorned Sonic Forces connection, time travel gimmick, and reused levels likely is. (99%) The level design is mostly preference along with level gimmicks though I'm not sure why they felt the need to reuse a TON of previous gimmicks. (Some were done really well though) Hope I did not come of as too harsh, this is a good step in the right direction if Sega does it right. Also why does Tails get a super form with the chaos emeralds. I thought he was younger and thus wasn't able to fully extract the power?
Gameplay cohesion. There aren't any Super Emeralds here and I guess they didn't want Tails fans to be left out while both Sonic and Knuckles can go Super. Tails also lacks his flock of Flickies, so I guess that's now his Hyper form?
I think someone said once that it was because Tails wasn't experienced enough with using the emeralds to have a normal Super form. I guess he can transform just like Sonic and Knuckles now that he's had some practice with the Super Emeralds. And yeah, I think the flickies of death were his "hyper" bonus despite not having a "hyper" form at the time. Speaking of hyper bonuses, what do you guys think Sonic's hyper bonus is now that he has the drop-dash? Seeing how Super Sonic shakes the screen the same way Hyper Knuckles does with his screen-clearing move, my guess is when Hyper Sonic drop-dashes it destroys all enemies on screen. I think if Hyper forms are ever brought back in a Retro Engine game, Knuckles is going to get something else as his hyper move, because the wall-slam kind of sucks. Really, this all is a bit unlikely, but I still have hope.
Mania Team can't do shit if SEGA forces them to add remixed zones in the next game. After all, Sonic Discovery was meant to be all-original, then Iizuka forced Whitehead to make it a remix game.
honestly, I prefer what we got over another stab at episodic content. Sonic 4 never got to be completed under that model, and I don't think Mania would have worked as well as it did if it tried the 4 zones per episode thing. Imagine Mania instead of getting massive praise, getting slammed for being even shorter than the total of 8 stages of Sonic Forces.
Wasn't that what game manuals were for back in the day (other than teaching you the controls [etc.] that is)? I mean, since they were limited in what they could do due to technology, they couldn't create much of a storyline just using sprites, so they had to have some kind of backstory in the game manuals instead; heck, not forgetting a short bio for the characters when it comes to Sonic 2 onwards. Mario is probably in the same boat too - if not more so: rescue the princess was always what it's about.
If the game still had the level of quality put into it as the final release did, I really doubt it would had been widely panned as you're saying. Complaints about the game's small scope would ensue, sure, but I really doubt people would overlook everything else and throw the game under the bus solely on the basis of its content. Concerning the episodic model, it should be noted that model only works if you are actively working on one project and you're periodically releasing chunks of it under a established schedule roadmap. Which absolutely was not the formula Sonic 4 was following on. Under an episodic plan, you usually intend to distribute all of the episodes for a game within the span of a year, gaps between episodic content take place between one-three months. Sonic 4 however seemingly intended to release new "episodes" every two or so years; had Sonic 4 gotten a third "episode", the entire Sonic 4 saga would had spanned an entire five years. And I'm using the term "episodes" loosely because it's pretty clear that both Episode I and Episode II in Sonic 4 are quite clearly two different projects. An Episode II to Episode I would had been the equivalent of Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic 3--it would had effectively been Episode I but with new zones to play in and maybe some other additions that are also backwards compatible to Episode I due to them using the same framework (and in the case of Episode I, was also designed to be forward compatible with new additions). The actual Episode II we got? Completely different graphics, a shifted gameplay focus to co-op, a 3D special stage, new moves like the Rolling Combo...and none of them are actually backwards compatible to Episode I. The best attempt they could come up with concerning "lock-on technology" between the two episodes was the pitiful Episode Metal, which provided a Metal Sonic palette swap running through a few ROMhack difficulty levels from Episode I, with cutscenes spread throughout. The change in projects was so drastic, the Wii platform was skipped entirely on getting Episode II (remember that?). With all that said, I don't really think anyone here was calling for the episodic approach to Mania as it is. Iizuka already clarified the game would have no DLC. As for the hypothetical abilities about what Mania could had been as a whole; I think it kinda goes without saying that clearly the decision could had been made to expand the original scope of the project and still have entirely new zones. Or at least go for a larger ratio of new levels compared to old levels (like having an even number of six remixed zones and six new zones; if not doing the complete inverse and having four remixed zones sprinkled between eight original zones). Of course, that would had meant a longer production cycle (the game was only made in a year according to Stealth; having existing assets, layouts, and mechanics of existing zones arguably helped sped up the process) and presumably needing more staff; which is something I personally would had been fine with. It really doesn't help that Sonic's been drowning in nostalgia throwbacks and rehashing old zones as it is over the past few years. We can only take so much Green Hill remakes/knockoffs in a short period of time. But given how great Mania turned out to be as it exists (especially in light of the amount of work the developers put into rehauling the existing zones for their secondary acts, and how it's literally the first authentic successor to the original games in years); I do feel largely content on not taking Sega to task too much on this point. I and many others do expect a Mania followup to have mostly new content though; Mania has at least proven the classic Sonic formula still holds up, and Mania's new zones are frequently pointed to the highlight of the game.
Let's face it, only one modern company has figured out how to make the episodic model work and Sega is not it. Tell Tale is.
According to interviews with SEGA, E2 was always planned to release after Generations. Considering that E1 actually suffered a six month delay, that means that they planned a two year wait between tiny instalments of an already small game. S4 was a cheaply made, cynical and corporate mess that didn't deserve the success or critical acclaim of E1, and deserved its undignified death after E2 flopped. It's the complete opposite of Mania, a game which went above and beyond out of actual passion and devotion. Mania was delayed so that content wouldn't get cut and so that the game could be the absolute best that it possibly could be. E1 was delayed because the entire thing leaked and people called it out for the crap that it was. SEGA did the bare minimum to improve it, and cemented how little they actually cared by failing to improve much with E2 despite claiming otherwise. Mania just oozes care, attention and a genuine desire to be great.
If it was like one of Telltale's early point-and-clicks and the writing was as funny as the show, I'd buy that...
Episode I was more of a three month delay rather than six; Epi. I's original planned release date was at some point during the summer season (don't think it was ever confirmed, but I recall speculation that Epi. I was originally slated for July). Absolutely agreed with everything else you've said though.
Mania is a game with an overwhelming amount of incredible energy, love and devotion behind it and it shows. It's a difference of night and day between Mania and Forces. Checking Stealth's Patreon he's full speed ahead on an original game at the moment whilst Taxman stated in that Rolling Stone interview he's also working on an original project next. Who knows though. If Sega see and recognise Mania's critical and commercial success they could fast track a sequel at any point. Mania 2 has to happen and would make everyone unbelievably happy.
I'm wondering if Taxman and Stealth would be willing to put their original games on hold for a Mania sequel.
Yeah wondering the same thing too. In that same Rolling Stone interview Taxman stated he wants to work on an original project but that he still had pending "discussions with Sega" coming up that could theoretically steer him and Stealth towards a potential Mania 2. Sega aren't oblivious to Mania's super success so I could absolutely see them pushing hard for a guaranteed to succeed sequel.
