[Greg the Cat]

I don't know. If they had gone and downplayed that Robotnik guy, this could have been a real gold mine for them.

This post has been edited by Greg the Cat: 20 March 2012 - 02:11 AM

[Aesculapius Piranha]

Dude, on 18 March 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

Sonic 06 was meant to be an improved Sonic Adventure. It is such a shame they failed because it succeeding would have radically altered the course of the games.

IMO the biggest reason the game was as bad as it was, is because like usual, SEGA demanded the game ship way too early. Yes the story sucked, and yes the VA work was miserable but if you've got solid gameplay underneath it, those things become tolerable. Like the OP says, from the demo version you can tell there was an internal build with better physics that got pulled for some reason or other.

Most of the complaints behind the adventure style of gameplay come from the fact that the genre never fully matured. Bringing an open, explorable sonic game with good flow is a big problem to be solved. It was truly deeper than boost-to-win, and while some people claim it is an unworkable fantasy, I know for a fact that such a game could succeed. It would just need the kind of love and polish that Unleashed got, and IMO unleashed didn't even deserve it. Unleashed's style of gameplay is too forced, and not liberated enough. I sincerely hope that the current formula gets an infusion of less-forced and more organic gameplay at some point. The current style makes for good games, but there's just something missing without Adventure's 'go-anywhere' personality that I sorely miss.

I definitely agree with this. Especially the missing the free roam feel. I remember because of this aspect Sonic Adventure was rumoured to be Sonic RPG lmao. None of the adventure games were polished to a finish. The levels were imbalanced. There were often "fall through the level" bugs and awkward camera angles. The games haven't looked to match their platform since the Dreamcast titles. Just a whole lot of bungling. I think the main reason I wanted them to stop making Adventure titles was less because they were a bad idea and more they just don't know how to do them. I was actually really disappointed when the controls sucked in Shadow because the idea wasn't as terrible as people were acting. To this day I think a Sonic based shooter would be a fun idea. Oh well.

Long story short maybe I will start whining about making 3D Sonic right if SEGA ever has their shit together again like in the Dreamcast era.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I never had an occasion where I straight fell through scenery in Adventure 1, 2 or Heroes, but I agree that this formula needed tweaking, whereas SEGA seemed to have jumped over it for something else.

The main issue with the older 3D Sonic games is that the camera was only meant to be forward facing, so back tracking (which was sometimes needed) was a real pain. This was especially apparent in levels like Final Rush/Final Chase, where doing such a thing and fighting with the camera led to pit deaths and loss of rings and important stuff needed to get the rank you wanted. Other than the Camera, the Adventure games were great. The occasional clipping issues in Adventure were unfortunately there but confined to only that game, and it's just a shame that SEGA haven't done anything with newer releases to fix it.

I always felt that this current generation of Sonic games was linear because SEGA didn't know how to fix the camera for free roaming and instead opted for a linear level design to compensate. There were always ways around the old camera style which as a younger teen was amazed they never bothered to try. In some places they could have repositioned it better, in other cases they just needed to let the game switch to a a freestyle mode for you, rather than you having to pause and do this.

Whilst I love the new style, I really do miss being able to stop and have a good look around. They could still even implement a thing whereby if you slow down and stop, you can look through Sonic's eyes like in the older ones. There was a brilliant image of the eart in Colours, and whole mountains of candy and such which they never let you get a really good look at. It's a shame.

[Black Squirrel]

Fixing gameplay bugs wouldn't change the fact there is a hedgehog x human love scene in the game.

[David The Lurker]

Scarred Sun, on 19 March 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Are we going to have some variant of this topic once a year or something?

I mean, the game is finished. It shipped. It's on shelves. Debating "what might have been" feels quite foolish.

I'm surprised the topic went beyond this post. Especially when it feels like most people aren't debating "would the features we know were planned have saved the game if they were integrated," but "oh man if they had changed the story/artstyle/everything about the game, would it have been good," which is essentially making this topic a "describe your ideal Sonic Adventure 3."

SpeedStarTMQ, on 19 March 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

I think Sonic 2006 could have been good. Not brilliant, but good nonetheless. The final product we saw literally was a beta version, and it's clear that even though the game hadn't been tested or finished, SEGA wanted it out for the sake of money. Things with the project obviously weren't going well, with Yuji Naka leaving with some lame excuse toward the end of the development.

What would Sonic 2006 actually have been like? Well, if they'd have fixed the clipping, the physics and the speed, it would have been a passable game. The glitches: wall walking, ceiling stopping, infinite jumping out of the boundaries (both as a collectible power-up and exploitable issue), falling through scenery, cloning of characters in cutscenes, and an unfairly shit Silver bossare just some of the glitches I experienced in my short playthrough, and there are tonnes more. Had all of this been fixed the game still wouldn't have been what we expected.

We expected a day and night system, better graphics and a playable Super Sonic, none of which was actually implemented in the final package.

Had SEGA stayed on course, given the devs a year to finish it and implement features correctly, then it could have been okay. As it stands, it was rushed from start to finish, with even the 4Kids VA's having their lines rushed or changed, and in one part of the game you can clearly hear the soldier mess up his line, laugh and start again. Seriously. I'm surprised nobody got a refund and that legal action wasn't taken. 2006 was THAT bad.

Edit: I forgot to mention this, but obviously the story wasn't even very Sonic-like. Robotnik wasn't the main villian, or even really a bad guy at all, there was a princess, a time travelling guy, and the whole scenery of the game looked very unlike any other Sonic game. Regardless of any fixing to the current version, it still would have been wierd.

Ok, if you're blaming Yuji Naka for the problems this game has, you're laying blame on the wrong person. I think the last game you can really point your fingers to with him would have to be the original Sonic Adventure. Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow...those were Iizuka's babies, and Naka just signed off on them because he was focusing on making Phantasy Star Online and other non-Sonic titles, since that's what he really wanted to do. While I think Sega wanted him way more involved with 2006, he left the company way early on in development. It's not like he left two months before it was to be released and they were scrambling to figure out how to finish it. Remember, when Naka left, it was then given another guy who also ended up leaving the project, because he became in charge of Sonic and the Secret Rings when they decided to just create a separate title for the Wii instead of making a downgraded port. The game had a lack of direction most assuredly, but you can't lay the blame on just one person, especially since the higher ups at Sega did not compensating for time.

Also, while I can understand people going "oh man the day and night system would have been there," why do people assume the physics would have been fixed? If they had been given extra time to iron out the bugs, fix the loading times, do the day/night transitions and add in Super Sonic, there is no evidence that the physics would have been vastly changed. I'm sure you still would have been able to take a leisurely stroll around gigantic loops.

Knucklez, on 19 March 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Straight from the Retro Wiki:

Quote

When released, the game received criticism for its numerous bugs and unfinished features which were hinted at during development.

It was also criticized for its flawed controls and excessive load times. This game was originally meant to be released in late 2007 but Sonic Team was rushed by Microsoft and Sony.

Hmm. I'm curious as to where that came from, since I don't recall hearing anyone say it was Microsoft/Sony who pushed the game coming out. I mean, it is possible I suppose, but I would like to hear the source on that. Otherwise, it's just like those people who say that Sonic Heroes wasn't that great because Sony yelled at Sega to make sure the game came out on the Playstation 2: a rumor from an unreliable source to try and take the blame off of Sega so fans can feel slightly better about standing up for a sub-par game.

Greg the Cat, on 20 March 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

*very few words*

Um. Not going to lie. I have no idea what your post is trying to accomplish. An image of the early concept of Sonic, along with a video of someone porting the levels of Sonic 2006 to the SGDK engine, along with some random statement about Eggman. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

[TimmiT]

David The Lurker, on 20 March 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Knucklez, on 19 March 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Straight from the Retro Wiki:

Quote

When released, the game received criticism for its numerous bugs and unfinished features which were hinted at during development.

It was also criticized for its flawed controls and excessive load times. This game was originally meant to be released in late 2007 but Sonic Team was rushed by Microsoft and Sony.

Hmm. I'm curious as to where that came from, since I don't recall hearing anyone say it was Microsoft/Sony who pushed the game coming out. I mean, it is possible I suppose, but I would like to hear the source on that. Otherwise, it's just like those people who say that Sonic Heroes wasn't that great because Sony yelled at Sega to make sure the game came out on the Playstation 2: a rumor from an unreliable source to try and take the blame off of Sega so fans can feel slightly better about standing up for a sub-par game.

It's some BS someone that goes by Pkstarstorm1up put on the Wiki. BlazeHedgehog made a tumblr post about him defending the game in the comments on his video: http://blazehedgehog...ent-s-3-12-2012

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 20 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

[Greg the Cat]

David The Lurker, on 20 March 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Um. Not going to lie. I have no idea what your post is trying to accomplish. An image of the early concept of Sonic, along with a video of someone porting the levels of Sonic 2006 to the SGDK engine, along with some random statement about Eggman. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Oops! I got a little self indulgent in my caustic behaviour there. And I'm sorry if the Robotnik phrase didn't make a lick of sense. I thought with him being more of a background event to Sonic's human girlfriend and the Monster(s) of the Week that it would have produced a laugh or two. Now you made me explain the damn joke.

Oh well. Trash it if you like (and this post too).

This post has been edited by Greg the Cat: 20 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

[The Growler]

For me, even if all the bugs and stuff was fixed, there's still far too many hedgehogs - and the ridiculous characters and storyline would still make the game a failure (even though I've never played the game myself, I'd decided one day to watch the YouTube video with all the in-game cut scenes from it - and boy is it a lousy storyline! And yes, I have watched plenty of gameplay on it as well).

I'm looking at you, Shadow the Hedgehog [game] - for comparison.

This post has been edited by The Growler: 20 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

[hwd45]

I never played Sonic '06. I've heard split opinions about the game; some people utterly hate the game and would buy it just to throw it against a wall, while others didn't mind the game but still hate the storyline. I'm pretty sure that if Sonic '06 was finished, it would be a lot less buggy but would still have the God-awful storyline. Sonic games seem to have a tendency to not be completed on time, most games do. There aren't many games where you can't find removed or unimplemented content. A few examples? The first 3 Sonic games are full of removed content. Sonic 2 is particularly famous for this reason (but everyone here obviously already knows that). Other games that quite famously contain Beta elements would be many Mario series games, almost every Pokémon game, and both Pikmin games. It's interesting to think about what these games would be like if they were finished on time, but the truth is that almost every game that has ever been released has had something removed at some point in its lifetime.

[TheKazeblade]

I am, to be extremely and completely honest, happy that '06 bombed. I hated that it was so terrible at the time, and even more aggravated that I spent $20 on the dang thing, but in hindsight, '06 is the best thing that happen to the franchise since 2001. The Sonic Adventure formula can work, and I believe that it's a place the franchise should try and go back to combining moves and elements learned from the Unleashed/Colors/Generations gameplay style. But the fact remains, '06 was the kick in the butt the franchise needed.

Sega had been pushing the SA formula continuously forward, adding frills and additional elements, but not fixing core fundamental problems that had been stuck with the series since 1999. Essentially, they had been hobbling along on a fractured leg for seven years, and '06 is just when it had a clean break. The franchise literally hit rock bottom and they realized that they need to re-think everything. I love what the Sonic Adventure formula could be, but there can be no denying that what Unleashed brought to the table was precisely the kind of thinking outside the box that Sonic needed at that point; and we have '06 to thank for bringing Sonic Team down to the level that they actually had to re-assess everything from the ground up. Additionally, several elements from the Unleashed formula itself can be directly traced back to ideas that hadn't fully developed yet in '06 (in addition to Secret Rings, Riders and Rush).

I don't care what '06 really could have been; to fix all the problems you had it would essentially become a completely different game, so it's kind of a moot discussion. But I would choose the upward trend the franchise has found itself in now due to '06's failure rather than a most likely mediocre finished '06 that would bring up more mediocre titles with the same problems. The trade-off's been worth it, no doubt.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 20 March 2012 - 02:16 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I... really agree with that.

On that particular note, I would also imagine that a game such as Sonic Generations would not have come to fruition, as it depended heavily on the change that the Unleashed style brought (which in turn seemed to be greatly inspired by the path Sonic & The Secret Rings took, with that game being the alternative after SEGA realised porting 2006 to the Wii would have been a pointless endeavour) contrasted to the classic 2D style formula. If 2006 had not flopped, where would we be now?? I would imagine that we may have seen some elements of Unleashed's style, but would the change have been that drastic? How much did 2006 really affect SEGA? It seems that the game on the surface did give them a kick up the arse, but it sold quite well, nearly garnering a million copies from what I can gather. That's a lot of games, even for something so shit and widely panned. It may actually be quite difficult to tell how much they were really affected, and how much of Unleashed they had planned (if any at all) in 2006 at the time of the games release.

[Yeow]

It still would had been bad (but not as bad, you have to at least admit that) from what I've gathered from here. Story, level design, and most of the game's additional game's content would still bring the game down. At best it would had been mediocre.

Honestly, I think whatever potential of being a good Sonic game 06 had was taken away by Naka when he bailed out and founded Prope during development with the majority of the original Sonic Team. Unless several controversial things like the interspecies romance and other unnecessary plot details were already set in stone by the original Sonic Team; then even at that point of development nothing from the game would salvagable. Like other people have been saying; it would have to be a completely different game in order to even be at worst decent.

This post has been edited by Zinos: 21 March 2012 - 04:59 AM

[minichapman]

I'm really getting annoyed with these 'What if' topics.

The sad and simple truth is, The game was finished. Think of it like this. A child who's finished writing an essay. Everybody says it is terrible but he still finished it.

Sure this game has lots of bugs, stupid loading times and a very retarded plot with dumb voice acting (or writing).
BUT remove the bugs and what do you have? A crap game with stupid loading times and a very retarded plot with dumb voice acting/writing.

The game was released, It sucks. It was rushed and quite possibly scarred a franchise. There is/was nothing any of us can/could do to change that. And even if it was any good. We'd have still found things to complain about it. It's like if Sonic Xtreme or even Sonic Extreme (The boarding game) were released, I'd bet that the majority of fans like us would dislike them.

[Shade Vortex]

minichapman, on 21 March 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Post

Actually, the ONLY reason the loading times are so long IS because the game was rushed. When loading, all the assets are reloaded from scratch, as during development they had no need to care about loading efficiency until the end. However, since they were forced to complete the game on time for the holiday season, instead of giving it the much-needed time to fine-tune things, the development (inefficient) method of loading assets was left unchanged.

At the very least, if 06 were properly finished, there wouldn't be as long loading times. That's a fact.

This post has been edited by Shade Vortex: 21 March 2012 - 02:02 PM

[Vaiyt]

It would still be a mediocre game, with the same goddamn flaws of every game Sonic Team shat out since 1999, and the same atrocious story.