[Tiller]

Quote

On the subject of giving Sonic a wall-jump, my main issue with the implementations of it are that Sonic always jumps away at a fixed velocity, breaking the flow of the level and causing you to lose momentum.

I'll maintain that keeping the walljump idea based on Sonic ping ponging off the wall would probably be best solution to this problem. Initiate a wall jump fast enough and you keep your momentum when jumping in the opposite direction, otherwise you start to slide for a second before dropping. Jumping during the slide results in a set walljump speed like Unleashed/Generations. The two walls upward corridor design should be very limited in their use in a base form. Level design like this is what I was going for:



Sonic still can't get to places Tails and Knuckles could if there was a sheer wall, but he could easily take advantage of this without a brake in the pacing and keep taking the high route. By keeping his speed from the wall jump he can run up the curve and on the roof. The move doesn't, or rather shouldn't, have to be prominent or required. It just needs to be there as an option.


For a two walled example:



Here the dark blue path comes from a speeder high route with the momentum required to make the wall jumps. The light blue is from a slower lower path, and if Sonic attempts the jump here or mistimes the blue path he can't make it to the second wall and is reduced to the lower path. It keeps him in line with speed. The fixed velocity idea slows down the game, but this should keep the pace.


The rest we can leave to shield powers. Adding any more would grant Sonic more moves anyway. I still like the Air shield giving Sonic the momentum bouncing homing attack ala balloons in generations/color plus wind gimmick resistances on top of the earth shield allowing for a rock slam move while preventing crushing. That's two additional moves right there.


I've also been thinking more about level design for forest act stuff too. I stole a little bit from some of the Retro project scrap work, but here's an idea for a nice set piece. Sonic runs off from a forest clearing down through the spiral tree branches all the way down deep into the forest's valley and into it's treeline. You could also use the top of the loop as an alternate path that launches you into a higher up portion of the lower forest. I would really like to see more of a meadow/tree/meadow theme going for the first act or so, where it progressively gets more forest like through a transitional set piece like this one. For naming, Winding Woodland is a catchy.

This post has been edited by Tiller: 17 April 2012 - 02:21 AM

[Scizor300]

Hell, at this point why not have Sonic's walljump work like the one in Fancy Pants and call it a day? Maybe incorporate some level design features from it to complement that.

This post has been edited by Scizor300: 17 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

[jasonchrist]

Putting aside for a moment the topic of wall jump and other shitty abilities...

Emerald Moon.

The inner hub of Egg Island (imagine it with a Robotnik tash).

At night

[W.A.C.]

Those images look awesome.

[DTX]

Everyone against the Wall Jump ability said:

Jumping between two walls quickly by pressing the jump button 6-10 times to get to the path above is boring and tedious.

Oh, okay, but then (when playing as Tails) flying up slowly between two walls by pressing the jump button 30+ times is totally not boring or tedious at all, I see, never mind! =P

This post has been edited by DTX: 18 April 2012 - 03:18 AM

[Yeow]

Scizor300, on 17 April 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Hell, at this point why not have Sonic's walljump work like the one in Fancy Pants and call it a day? Maybe incorporate some level design features from it to complement that.

I do like that idea.

To those that don't know, Fancy Pants's jump allowed the player to jump off the wall in different ways by pressing a different direction when jumping. See 1:52 in this video.

[StreakThunderstorm]

Hi Sonic without Sonic.

[Yeow]

Yeah, Fancy Pants's gameplay is quite similar to Sonic in some aspects. It even has momentum, something Sonic 4 Epi. 1 lacked.

This post has been edited by Zinos: 18 April 2012 - 07:42 AM

[Covarr]

I think it's time to start looking to fanfics for move inspiration. Anything other than "going Super without emeralds" has gotta be good.

[Dark Sonic]

Take the Sonic Unleashed intro and get rid of the part where the emeralds drain and the part where he turns into a werewolf. Eggman tricks Sonic into going to his space station and robs him of his chaos emeralds, then throws him into space.

[Sonic Warrior TJ]

You could give him his 2P Battle powers from Sonic Adventure 2. I used Sonic Wind in my old, gross fanfics as a makeshift Kamehameha. I'd link you, but I took them down because, you know, they're terrible and like 11 years old by now. It was such a Digimon ripoff too. Each Sonic character had a 'real world' counterpart that shared most of their abilities, and at one point there were gems they used to...ugh...'Chaos Fuse'.

[Aerosol]

DTX, on 18 April 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Everyone against the Wall Jump ability said:

Jumping between two walls quickly by pressing the jump button 6-10 times to get to the path above is boring and tedious.

Oh, okay, but then (when playing as Tails) flying up slowly between two walls by pressing the jump button 30+ times is totally not boring or tedious at all, I see, never mind! =P

You never have to do that though, for good reason. You only have to fly as Tails if you want to, to explore. There were also a few nuggets of discovery for those players that did explore with Tails' flight. That's why having areas with two close walls specifically for wall jumping is a horrible, terrible idea.

[P3DR0]

AerosolSP, on 19 April 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

DTX, on 18 April 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Everyone against the Wall Jump ability said:

Jumping between two walls quickly by pressing the jump button 6-10 times to get to the path above is boring and tedious.

Oh, okay, but then (when playing as Tails) flying up slowly between two walls by pressing the jump button 30+ times is totally not boring or tedious at all, I see, never mind! =P

You never have to do that though, for good reason. You only have to fly as Tails if you want to, to explore. There were also a few nuggets of discovery for those players that did explore with Tails' flight. That's why having areas with two close walls specifically for wall jumping is a horrible, terrible idea.

This isn't a valid argument about "why not walljump", this goes more under level design than anything else. Also the same thing that you said about Tails can be said about the Wall Jump. If Sonic manages to create a good level design that doesn't require the player to use the wall jump, in other way than to explore and find new paths, I don't see why not. Seriously, whoever is against the wall jump is either having nostalgic blindness or is consumed by his Modern Sonic hate. Try to look for the pros and cons in here, the only con that I can find about the wall jump involves level design only, which would be mandatory sections, but other than that, look at the pros... It would evolve the vertical exploration for Sonic, it's gool and can create some new gimmicks. It adds something new to the game in a better way than any "air dash" or super pellout would.

Honestly, all the arguments that I saw against the wall jump seemed to imply that the game will have a shitty level design by default. Like Mario games with Walljump, you'll reach to a point where there is only a wall in front of you and a floating wall so you can kick back.

Sonica is trying his best to give the classic feel to his game and that involves level design, I'm sure, I seriously don't believe that he would do such sections or make the wall jump something mandatory. In the worst case scenario he would do some gimmick where you have to jump between two walls to reach to something, just that, which isn't a problem for me, to be honest due how we had almost mandatories Spin-dash related gimmicks on the classic games.

[Shaun Shikeishuu]

I still don't see why Sonic having the wall jump would be such a terrible idea. It would be used to take alternative routes, it wouldn't need to be forced. If you have two vertical walls close together then the option to wall jump to a higher route would be there but if you don't want to go that way you can simply continue on the normal route. In my opinion if Sonic has to have some kind of new ability for this game it should either be the wall jump or a stomping move. I don't really see anything else working for a 2D game. And once again why would the new move have to be speed based anyway? The classics weren't all about speed, they were about platforming and building up momentum.

[Aerosol]

P3DR0, on 19 April 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

AerosolSP, on 19 April 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

DTX, on 18 April 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Everyone against the Wall Jump ability said:

Jumping between two walls quickly by pressing the jump button 6-10 times to get to the path above is boring and tedious.

Oh, okay, but then (when playing as Tails) flying up slowly between two walls by pressing the jump button 30+ times is totally not boring or tedious at all, I see, never mind! =P

You never have to do that though, for good reason. You only have to fly as Tails if you want to, to explore. There were also a few nuggets of discovery for those players that did explore with Tails' flight. That's why having areas with two close walls specifically for wall jumping is a horrible, terrible idea.

This isn't a valid argument about "why not walljump", this goes more under level design than anything else. Also the same thing that you said about Tails can be said about the Wall Jump. If Sonic manages to create a good level design that doesn't require the player to use the wall jump, in other way than to explore and find new paths, I don't see why not. Seriously, whoever is against the wall jump is either having nostalgic blindness or is consumed by his Modern Sonic hate. Try to look for the pros and cons in here, the only con that I can find about the wall jump involves level design only, which would be mandatory sections, but other than that, look at the pros... It would evolve the vertical exploration for Sonic, it's gool and can create some new gimmicks. It adds something new to the game in a better way than any "air dash" or super pellout would.

Honestly, all the arguments that I saw against the wall jump seemed to imply that the game will have a shitty level design by default. Like Mario games with Walljump, you'll reach to a point where there is only a wall in front of you and a floating wall so you can kick back.

Sonica is trying his best to give the classic feel to his game and that involves level design, I'm sure, I seriously don't believe that he would do such sections or make the wall jump something mandatory. In the worst case scenario he would do some gimmick where you have to jump between two walls to reach to something, just that, which isn't a problem for me, to be honest due how we had almost mandatories Spin-dash related gimmicks on the classic games.

Your quoted post wasn't an argument against wall jumping. It was an argument against wall-jumping specific areas. I'm not saying, nor have I implied that having the wall jump will give the game shitty level design. All I've said on that is that wall-jumping specific areas are retarded.

Besides, I can say the same to you about air dashing. You know, the "they're either blinded by nostalgia or consumed by modern hate" part. Oh yea and also the "try to look for the pros and cons here" part. I've already said that the air dash idea wouldn't work exactly because of the existence of the fire shield, but my point still stands!

I've tried to look for the pros and cons, thank you very much. I don't think Sonic should be concerned about having abilities specifically dedicated to vertical exploration. He should be getting there by going as fast as possible. That's Sonic's thing, and it worked just fine for 3 games. I'd rather there be some sort of gimmick in a level that can bounce Sonic off walls at speeds that depends on his speed going into the gimmick than make it a always-on ability. Shit, I'd even be okay with a gimmick that essentially worked just like the wall-jump you're suggesting. If I can't think of a way for the ability to work as is in the classic games, I don't think it belongs in a classic-style game as an innate ability.

Quote

I still don't see why Sonic having the wall jump would be such a terrible idea. It would be used to take alternative routes, it wouldn't need to be forced. If you have two vertical walls close together then the option to wall jump to a higher route would be there but if you don't want to go that way you can simply continue on the normal route. In my opinion if Sonic has to have some kind of new ability for this game it should either be the wall jump or a stomping move. I don't really see anything else working for a 2D game. And once again why would the new move have to be speed based anyway? The classics weren't all about speed, they were about platforming and building up momentum.

I just want to address this nugget of wisdom for a second. The classics were about speed. They had platforming, yes. But they were about speed. Why else would you need to build up your momentum? Why else would setpieces in the game showcase how fast Sonic can move? You used momentum to control your speed, but the games encouraged you to get from A to B as quick as possible. There's a fine line between encouraging getting to the goal quickly and streamlining the player to boredom, a line that modern games tend to err on the wrong side of. But there is no mistaking that the original trilogy of games wanted you to go fast.

I've said it twice before, and I'll say it again. When I say the new move should be speed based, I am NOT talking about boosting or some shit like that. Tails can fly. That is his emphasis, he can fucking fly. Knuckles is strong. That is his emphasis, he can break shit and go where noone else can. Sonic is fast. Any move that is added should emphasize that. Jumping off a wall does not emphasize that. It just doesn't.

This post has been edited by AerosolSP: 19 April 2012 - 01:15 PM