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Sonic Mania Plus (Consoles Physical; PC Digital) - Non-Leaks Thread Mighty and Ray Are Back In Town

#46 User is offline Dark Sonic 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:35 PM

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If you think about it, all that was announced today and Mania in general is huge. Why? It's all establishing a Classic universe. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Robotnik ya sure. But Mighty, Ray, Fang, Bean, and Bark? A cartoon series? Along with all the other elements Mania has introduced? This is more fleshed out then Boom at this point. All of this is essentially solidifying Classic Sonic into the series frame work as it's own unique thing.

I've been hoping for this since Generations, and it seems to finally be coming to be. I hope this is the start of a new age of classic Sonic.
This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 16 March 2018 - 10:35 PM

#47 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:41 PM

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On the Amy subject, there's still time to beg Strife to lobby for her inclusion in Freedom Planet 2. Won't ever happen but same could be said about reviving the classic Sonic brand.

#48 User is offline /dev/sr0 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:53 PM

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Why not just let Amy curl though? She doesn't have to have the Advance version of her moves. I think it'd be cool if she had the CD spindash instead of the Sonic 2 one.
This post has been edited by /dev/sr0: 16 March 2018 - 10:53 PM

#49 User is offline Dissent 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:55 PM

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View PostYeow, on 16 March 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

View PostDissent, on 16 March 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Amy would require reworks of stages and all kinds of things. She doesn't even curl. She'd have to be on the docket from the start and the characters they're implementing are safe budget inclusions.


Playable Amy would only reworking the levels and other mechanics if the designers decided to throw out the core gameplay and redesign her playstyle into something entirely different from everyone else. Like they did in both the first Adventure and Advance as well as Sonic 2006.

To hell that noise, honestly. That's not to say I want her to be a complete clone of Sonic, but at least let her have the standard spin attack and roll (and maybe spindash) first before diversifying her moveset. Adventure 2 (multiplayer), Heroes, and the Advance sequels (moreso Advance 2 than Advance 3) shows making her play (almost) identical to the other characters isn't an actual negative. Few--if any--people really give her flak for actually having similar gameplay to the rest of the cast in those titles.

If they did this it would be a disservice to the characters side-scrolling development in the past. There are absolutely people that would complain if she didn't have her own unique moveset and utilize her hammer for everything. I think this is the safest bet for ease of inclusion, creation, budget, and fan reaction. I've already seen one decently received FB comment in SA2Hell asking for Amy + hammer mechanics ala GBA style.

Also! This gives the characters a renewed lease on life! If the DLC is well-received, we are sure to see more of them and canon character development in the future :)

View Postsms skull leader, on 16 March 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

Since when is curling into a ball ... an absolute necessity

Sections that are designed to expect Sonic to have jumped prior before falling in to it with an enemy off screen would be an issue. It doesn't have to be related to speed.
This post has been edited by Dissent: 16 March 2018 - 11:13 PM

#50 User is offline /dev/sr0 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:59 PM

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View PostDissent, on 16 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

If they did this it would be a disservice to the characters side-scrolling development in the past. People would complain if she didn't have her own unique moveset and utilize her hammer for everything. I think this is the safest bet for ease of inclusion, creation, budget, and fan reaction. I've already seen one decently received FB comment in SA2Hell asking for Amy + hammer mechanics ala GBA style.

Also! This gives the characters a renewed lease on life! If the DLC is well-received, we are sure to see more of them and canon character development in the future :)/>/>

I agree that she should use her hammer, but I also think she should stick to the one-button formula of the other characters' moves.
And honestly, this is "Classic" Amy. No one would care if her moves are different.

Maybe she could have a insta-shield-like attack that uses her hammer. That would be cool.
(also the Sonic CD spindash thing I mentioned above)
This post has been edited by /dev/sr0: 16 March 2018 - 11:00 PM

#51 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:02 PM

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FYI, Amy having a hammer is classic canon from Sonic the Fighters.

#52 User is offline sms skull leader 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:12 PM

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View PostE-122-Psi, on 16 March 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

View Postsms skull leader, on 16 March 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Meh, not really excited in any way about Mighty or Ray as those two characters never did anything for me, nor do I see them featuring any interesting gameplay additions, since Mighty in Chaotix was nothing more than a clone of Sonic with wall jump.:. Hardly the stuff that give me the incentive to do a full play with an extra character, and don't see Ray being any different, on top of him being yet another flight character.

Would had preferred much more to see Amy, as there is the Advance gameplay that avoids the old "Sonic + two abilities" mold that I find to be lazy and so limiting, and which I would not mind to see updated a bit in a way like E-122 Psi did with his hacks, such as featuring both the dash as well as her stride jump, among other tweaks.


I appreciate the endorsement, but one thing I can tell you is that implementing Amy is a toughie, ESPECIALLY if they go for her Advance abilities. It's not just programming a character to work the same way as Sonic, it's programming a character with completely new attributes, and then programming near around everything in the level separately to react to it the same way as Sonic. Given the levels weren't tailor made with Amy in mind this would be quite convoluted a process. (I expect anyway, I don't know if Mania has an easier programming layout than the original games' ASM).

Personally while I'd have liked Amy too, I can't begrudge Mighty and Ray getting utilised for the first time in about two decades. They need it WAY more than Amy right now. I am also very interested in how the Mania team will depict them, both in gameplay and their lovely animations.


I remember reading some of your posts from years ago of the process, which was really an accomplishement you achieved with help from other members of this site that aided you in the programming part to add the new commands. This was an issue due to how the original games where not built in mind for a character that used two buttons instead of one, or that interacted with level gimmicks in ways that others could not, like the action of hitting springs for extra height that you had to add as well as other interactions. However I don't think level design is an issue since even if said layouts where not meant for Amy, it was ultimately up to the player to decide how to use her abilities to deal with the same obstacles that other characters face, which is why I found your first hack in Sonic 1 that featured Amy to be something much more pleasant than the original version since the character had abilities that made her ideal for a more platforming oriented title while still retaining the ability to build speed in ways that others don't.

Hopefully a sequel to Mania does solve this by being programmed from the beginning to allow Amy to be playable with all of her abilities much like the original Sonic Advance did instead of hard coding it afterwards like in a hack. Perhaps it will be a toughie to figure it out like you said, since the programming between the Advance and Genesis games is different (even your hacks, which are great, are still only an as close as possible recreation of the moveset and not entirely 100% exactly the same) but good things are never easy.

However, I really can't do much about the bad taste it leaves to see Amy still being excluded in favor of characters that while indeed not having been around in over two decades, also didn't do much to be as memorable nor really are IMO in a situation where they exactly "need" this more than a character that has been established just as long as Tails and who had more presence in the franchise than them. Imagine what Tails or Knuckles fans would say if you were to tell them that they had to sit it out for these two. I think you can understand how it is when Amy hasn't been playable in a Genesis style game for a much, much longer time than Tails or Knuckles, more when all that was given is just an enemy doll in the likeness of the character. I do understand the reasons such as budget or having characters easy to program (assuming it's due to basically being derivatives), however I really can't do anything about how I personally feel about this other than hope that the next installment solves this instead of being another situation where like one of the members said, a line in the sand is drawn whenever it comes to Amy.
This post has been edited by sms skull leader: 16 March 2018 - 11:14 PM

#53 User is offline rebelcheese 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:34 PM

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Just give Amy the Peel-Out as her exclusive version of the Spin Dash and problem solved. Her hammer swing can operate like the Insta-Shield in practice too.

That's all you have to do to make Amy play like the others, now build her from there.

#54 User is offline /dev/sr0 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:35 PM

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View Postrebelcheese, on 16 March 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Just give Amy the Peel-Out as her exclusive version of the Spin Dash and problem solved. Her hammer swing can operate like the Insta-Shield in practice too.

That's all you have to do to make Amy play like the others, now build her from there.

Does she curl anyway in the stage parts that force you to curl?
Or maybe she'd be short enough to just fit through there when she's fully leaned forward running??
This post has been edited by /dev/sr0: 16 March 2018 - 11:36 PM

#55 User is offline sonicblur 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:45 PM

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-1 for Amy, since nobody's doing it. I didn't like playing as Amy in Sonic Adventure and the Sonic Advance series. Her gameplay replaced simple, streamlined gaming mechanics with something slower and more complex instead. It's a completely different gameplay flow than the rest of the characters. Even Blaze was more consistent with the gameplay of the classic series than Amy was. It's a platformer, not a fighting game. If the combat was more enjoyable, or if they give Amy a gun or something, then perhaps it could help, but well designed Sonic levels are paced such that melee combat does not work well.

#56 User is offline Laughingcow 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:53 PM

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View Post/dev/sr0, on 16 March 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

View Postrebelcheese, on 16 March 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Just give Amy the Peel-Out as her exclusive version of the Spin Dash and problem solved. Her hammer swing can operate like the Insta-Shield in practice too.

That's all you have to do to make Amy play like the others, now build her from there.

Does she curl anyway in the stage parts that force you to curl?
Or maybe she'd be short enough to just fit through there when she's fully leaned forward running??

She had an odd kind of spinning animation for those parts.

I suggest taking the Sonic Adventure 2 route which just had her spinning with her hammer out.

#57 User is offline /dev/sr0 

Posted 16 March 2018 - 11:57 PM

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View Postsonicblur, on 16 March 2018 - 11:45 PM, said:

-1 for Amy, since nobody's doing it. I didn't like playing as Amy in Sonic Adventure and the Sonic Advance series. Her gameplay replaced simple, streamlined gaming mechanics with something slower and more complex instead. It's a completely different gameplay flow than the rest of the characters. Even Blaze was more consistent with the gameplay of the classic series than Amy was. It's a platformer, not a fighting game. If the combat was more enjoyable, or if they give Amy a gun or something, then perhaps it could help, but well designed Sonic levels are paced such that melee combat does not work well.

That's why I think classic Amy should have her own moves. Either Peelout + hammer-insta-shield or CD Spindash + hammer-insta-shield both seem like good options to me. Single-button moves are the standard. Adding a hammer button would be totally lame.
And not letting her curl in the advance games was dumb in the first place. Even Tails can do that.
This post has been edited by /dev/sr0: 16 March 2018 - 11:58 PM

#58 User is offline Sid Starkiller 

Posted 17 March 2018 - 12:03 AM

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The simple solution to Amy would be to take a page from Adventure 2 and Advance 2. Those games allow to roll, but the graphics make it clear that the hammer is what's doing damage, not her quills. Then it's just adding a unique trait. Maybe double jumping could make her do a really big hammer swing ala the instashield, but uncurl her afterward.

EDIT: Ninja'd.
This post has been edited by Sid Starkiller: 17 March 2018 - 12:03 AM

#59 User is offline Yeow 

Posted 17 March 2018 - 12:05 AM

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View PostDissent, on 16 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

If they did this it would be a disservice to the characters side-scrolling development in the past. There are absolutely people that would complain if she didn't have her own unique moveset and utilize her hammer for everything. I think this is the safest bet for ease of inclusion, creation, budget, and fan reaction. I've already seen one decently received FB comment in SA2Hell asking for Amy + hammer mechanics ala GBA style.


Probably going get jumped on for this by some people; but if designing Amy with hammer abilities that are still loyal to the core mechanics is such a betrayal to her gameplay development, then I'm all the more fine with the designers just leaving her alone. Though I don't think there really exists somewhere a large group of people who believe this, to the point of accepting nothing less than Amy to be designed primarily in line with the GBA games, regardless of whatever playstyle she's made for.

If they're going through the trouble of making Amy playable in a classic game, then I think the least the designers can do is make her adhere to the classic standard. Use her abilities as a means to expand upon the core gameplay rather than contrast or outright redefine it. I don't see playable characters designed in the latter format as something that should be incorporated into the Genesis formula, or people demanding that as an audience the Genesis formula should be catering to. That sounds like something more suited to the modern games, which aren't as interested in maintaining consistency in the core mechanics or gameplay focus as the Genesis games were/are (even if it can be said to be a major flaw with those titles).

e: To show I'm not just sitting here trying to stonewall against the idea playable Amy, I can offer ideas on how I feel she could expand on the game in her unique way without shifting the focus too much. One mechanic I'll give credit to Advance for coming up with was Amy being able to use her hammer on springs, which caused her to fly much higher than how she would normally go when jumping on a spring. That's an example of using her hammer to change the properties of game objects. Develop that by letting her hammer change how many mechanics in the levels work; applying to both standard game objects and zone-specific level gimmicks.

Whereas a boulder in a desert might be too strong for Sonic/Tails to destroy, or simply crumbles into pebbles once Knuckles merely touches it; Amy could hammer it down into medium-sized rocks used for platforms. Certain badniks that when destroyed by everyone else, Amy's hammer can first stun them into temporary submission, hit them with a hammer again to swing them away and destroy them for good; which award you with additional points (especially if you hit them into other badniks). A closed drawbridge that is otherwise held up, but can be brought down by Amy hammering the ground enough times to force it open. Spikes that injure everyone else, but be smashed away by Amy like nobody's business. Hammer swings being used to ricochet enemy projectiles, as opposed to canceling them out with shields (someone just mentioned this a couple of pages back) or being injured by them. And so on. These offer new ways to play with the environment that reward the player with new routes (exploration), score bonuses, and secondary powerups, among other things.
This post has been edited by Yeow: 17 March 2018 - 12:53 AM

#60 User is offline Hanging Waters 

Posted 17 March 2018 - 12:11 AM

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I'm gonna have to second a -1 for the whole Amy train. I honestly never found her character design very compelling, whether it's her classic or modern design. She just seems like a very Minnie-Mouse-esque "pink Sonic but with a dress". The idea of a classic character having clothes is odd to me, but still I feel like even Blaze has a much more unique design and would add more to the classic gameplay experience.

Then again, maybe what's really throwing me off is the hammer. I mean, think about it: in a game where characters attack exclusively with their bodies, Amy would be the ONLY character to use an actual weapon, and that feels very out of place to me. It's true that she had the pico hammer in Sonic the Fighters, but if she were to return in a Mania 2 I think it would make more sense for her to just curl and uncurl like the rest of the cast, and maybe have a new secondary action that doesn't involve the use of a weapon.

I think saying that Amy "deserves" to be a playable character or is an "obvious" choice for the Mania roster is kind of overdoing it as well. I understand wanting her to be in the game and liking her as a character, but if I'm being honest it sounds like some people are coming at it from the perspective that Team Mania is committing some sort of heinous criminal act by not including a character that was never playable in a classic 2D Sonic game to begin with, as if it's some kind of offensive and incomprehensible oversight. I understand that some people are disappointed that they didn't choose the "well-established" character over the obscure ones, but personally I'm happy to see Sonic Team and Team Mania bringing something new to the table. I think Mighty and Ray add some character and a sense of variety to the series that we haven't seen in a long time, something we simply don't get with another pink hedgehog. And, with their reputations relatively untarnished, they have a chance to take two loveable and well-designed characters and reincorporate them into the classic canon, even give them new abilities and play styles in a way that makes the classic formula more enjoyable.

Honestly, I have a good bit of faith that Team Mania will do ththat characters justice, and I really don't think they would spend this much time just making reskins of Sonic and Knuckles with the same physics and abilities. The dropdash added a whole new dimension to the formula that seriously changed the way I play a Sonic game, and I'm hopeful that the team will introduce Ray and Mighty into the game as unique player experiences with their own styles and idiosyncrasies, even if that just means tweaking their acceleration or jump height or giving them new abilities to play around with. What's drawn me to the classic games again and again is the playfulness of the physics and the sense of enjoyment I get from pinballing around and using slopes and ramps to traverse the level geometry in creative ways and bounce off chains of badniks and item boxes. Exploring and climbing as Knuckles is a lot of fun in levels that are designed to let you take advantage of those abilities (looking at you, MSZ Act 1), and flying around as Tails can be fun as well (although I've always found flying as Tails to be a little stale), but it's the feeling of running and rolling around like a marble that makes the experience feel so unique. It gives me a sense of control and an immense sense of agency as a player, and with fun and practical abilities akin to the drop dash I feel like Ray and Mighty would have the potential to add to that experience.
This post has been edited by Hanging Waters: 17 March 2018 - 01:51 AM

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