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Dear Retro

Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Chimpo, May 4, 2009.

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  1. Jan Abaza

    Jan Abaza

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    Tell you what, guys. You could make me your project leader. I've been sitting on this material for a complete Sonic game for five years by now. I can't promise A Sonic Game To End All Sonic Games, but what we CAN deliver here is sort of an ansver to Megaman 9, a Sonic game that is like Sonic 1, but brand new and with a whole lot of stuff. You'll be going through another reboot with this becoming Sonic Abaza running on a fricking Mega Drive, but I can promise you'll always know what you should be doing, and it'll be a lot cleaner working with Genesis limitations.

    I've got the tough bits (design and level art) down, what should be done is the fun bits, like enemies, music and *cough* actual implementation, because both ASM and SonED2 hate my guts. -_- I can post a plan in two days and have a full layout of stage 1 done in a week.

    What you say, Retro?
     
  2. Metal Knuckles

    Metal Knuckles

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    Shadow Alpha, an awesome hack of Sonic 1
    I don't know how it will throw off the votes, but STHX is the bastard who knocked me up and then ran away. My poor baby (???) will never know the tender loving touch of a father, and all because this man decided to leave his family life and turn to 90's video game icon fan project forum politics!

    Meanwhile, Chimpo has been supplying us with a steady income as we've worked under his supervision, and has alloted me the appropriate time off to eat, sleep, and as of recently, fight swine-flue infested zombies. This gentle creature of God's creation has even invited me over for Christmas dinner on several occasions. Clearly, this project deserves someone who shows such dedication and interests in every aspect of the project, including those working on the most minute tasks.

    Are you really willing to throw away all the progress made by this majestic architecture of a man for the ramblings of a runaway dad?
     
  3. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    My vote is for Jan. I want to hear some opinions regarding him as a leader and less bitching about Chimpo, since he's not gonna read it and doesn't give enough of a shit to give you the middle finger in response to your comments.

    Matwek has already tried the leader thing and backed out, and Rave is a good spriter, but he's too much of a prick for my liking. Let's get some opinions flowing so we know where to go from here.
     
  4. Ollie

    Ollie

    DIGGY DIGGY HOLE Member
    You could give all the art to my Sonic Dash project

    Seriously, I would let this project die for a bit. The last restart pretty much bore people to death and they stopped working on it. I'd say wait until the Summer Holiday's when most people have free time on their hands to get the foundations in place, it's just that first "leg up" that's going to be the hardest/most time consuming, so if there are a large majority of people wanting to continue progress, restart in the summer. Start fresh, let all the old posts go to waste, make sure they are backed up though, just incase someone does want to bring back an old concept.

    Before you begin, you would need to start off with a Solid team, have a x number of artists and get a x number of programmers, starting with 5 artists but no programmers is pointless since progress won't reach anywhere after the art stage. Once that has happened, then the programmers will have to decide which engine they are going to use, you need something that everyone can use.

    You need to give each volunteer a specific role, if everyone works on just one thing (E.G Sonic's Standing Sprite) then there is just going to be constant bitching about other peoples art style. Working behind closed doors on a little bit of work might be a good idea for a start, then release the art/music/etc to the public in order to hear their input.

    Next would be the concept stage, make sure you know how many levels are you going to have, what you are looking for in a level (Concept-wise) and how the whole game is going to flow. (Sega Screen - Sonic Retro Presents - Title Screen?)

    Make sure you have a sensible target, nobody can ever make a full game from start to finish, in my own case, I have aimed to make a working platform engine for the PSP in lua. I have next aimed to make sure that I have Sonic feeling physics, gimmicks and so on, then I would aim to getting general art done then just art for one specific level. Once you have got all of that done, you can either release a demo or continue with a new level and so on.

    To be honest, that plan is what I use for when working on Sonic Dash, I think it's a very straight forward plan and is the easiest guidelines to follow when creating any game. Although you do need a solid kick-up-the-bum like what Chimpo did start to do at the very beginning of his role as Project Leader.

    EDIT: Also here is what I would do forum/topic wise:

    Sticky: Project Overview - Just a brief overview.
    Sticky: Help Wanted - If you are requesting new team members have a topic of applications with examples of their work etc, a giant free-for-all of artists isn't going to work.
    Sticky: Current Targets - Display what art needs to be work on or what music needs to be done, etc. That way people on the team won't get derailed and work on something completely different.

    Level X - Display what the level artists are doing right now with the art.
    Art Showcase - Display general WIP art to let the other users on this form have their say.
    Music Showcase - Same Goes.

    I would, personally, split up the main team into three/four parts:
    Project Leader - An all-round project member with a good sense of direction, who is organized in order to tell each member what they are doing.
    Artists - With specific tasks to work on.
    Musicians - With a track each to work on.
    Level Designers - ONE person to work on just ONE level for now.
    Programmers - To do the Programming side. :v:
     
  5. Diablohead

    Diablohead

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    I suppose I could enter my name into the hat, just to give more choice.

    I not seen any of Jan's work so I can't say much.
     
  6. Spanner

    Spanner

    The Tool Member
    Jan seems to have good ideas, a community "hack" could work out if it is executed properly. I don't know though, would there be people willing to help such as programmers? I could contribute with some music importing but that's really it, I'm not good with anything else. Also if it was a hack, perhaps you should use Sonic 2 as a base, especially that more stuff would be available without having to extend stuff as well as 128x128 tiles.
    Just my two cents, I don't know if anyone will agree with me or not but whatever.
     
  7. Afti

    Afti

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    No leader can succeed in this climate. No matter who wins, they too will fail. They will be directing a committee too large to be efficient.

    I would like to suggest an alternate system.

    The group allowed to contribute is kept relatively small- say, twenty-five people or so. They are elected by the committee formed of all those who see fit to come here, based on their offerings on a monthly basis. As such, you will be required to do good work for the game on a regular basis to contribute to it. In addition, a leader to direct this group is elected quarterly.

    A group of one-hundred-fifty people is uncontrollable by a single leader, regardless of their competence- Chimpo has demonstrated that. Twenty-five is more manageable, while electing them means that it's still a "community" project.
     
  8. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    25 leaders? Are you shitting me?

    Yeah, no.

    Anyway, can we get some replies regarding what I actually, uh, asked for? That'd be totally rad, dudes.
     
  9. Ollie

    Ollie

    DIGGY DIGGY HOLE Member
    Yeah, all this discussion about trying to make it like the 16-Bit games, why don't we all aim this project towards a giant overhaul of Sonic 2. That way, I can actually contribute alot. Since I have a reasonble amount of skill for art, I'm getting a REAL good understanding of assembly, I'm not too shabby with layouts and I think I have a slight understanding on how Music works. It is very possible for stripping down the Sonic 2 Disassembly and making a pretty slick new engine using existing (Official) code. HEck I'm sure there have been WAY more good quality hacks than good quality games using the E02 Engine. :v:
     
  10. Afti

    Afti

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    You misunderstood me.

    One leader, but a leader of 25 people rather than the entire forum. MUCH more manageable. The others would only be allowed to vote for contributors, but not to contribute themselves. The current system is a direct democracy, even under Chimpo's "dictatorship". I propose a republic.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    I would go with Jan using the current system, though, because it means that there is a solid direction for the project.

    Also: being on the Genesis means that large chunks of the engine you want are already present and documented, even if it isn't a hack of a single game.
     
  11. Yuzu

    Yuzu

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    Sounds like a good idea, from what I've read it looks like you would probably be one of the best people for the project. Especially with your plans.

    I nominate Ollie for Project Leader. =P
     
  12. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    And I threw up a bit in my mouth.

    Like I said, we're looking for plausible nominations here. Someone with skill, the objective ability to judge skill, and a strong sense of direction. That's why my vote is for Jan... and with a little bit of help from Stealth, perhaps. :v:
     
  13. STHX

    STHX

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    But wouldn't that cause many unneded limitations?
    A hack is always a good thing, but it will still be a MD game. Even if we try to put it on an add-on (Mega CD, 32X) it would still be a MD game. It will have a limit on the total size, a limit on the type of music, the type of graphics or palette.
    I agree, Mega Man 9 is an amazing game, but what makes it great is that it isn't a NES game. If you analize it carefully you could see not the whole game could have been on a NES cartdridge (of course the online things would have never been able to be on a NES cartdridge. I'm refering to some tracks which doesn't seems very possible, and I'm sure I spotted some parts where the palette went past its limit).

    On the countrary, even if we replicate the style of a classic Sonic game, even if we intentionally limit the palette or the audio quality, it still won't feel like a true limit. It will actually be interesting to see how far we can recreate the Sonic engine, instead of using the one of an existing game.
    Also, we have E-02. Do we truly need something else?


    (the risk of doing an hack could also be in making it too similar to an existing hack, especially if we make it for the Mega CD)
     
  14. Spanner

    Spanner

    The Tool Member
    No offence, regardless of how much work a fangame engine is done to it, it can't replicate the Mega Drive. I've played a few fangames and as much as their engines are good, slowdown such as the Sonic "object" can easily be noticed.
    Also, you'd be able to play this on emulators and probably flashcarts, so there wouldn't be any issues such as incompatible hardware or not using Windows.
    Just my opinion.
     
  15. Ollie

    Ollie

    DIGGY DIGGY HOLE Member
    I thought the whole point of this project was to make it play as close as possible to the original trilogy.

    There hasn't been another game use that engine apart from Project Matrix itself and the Megaman fangame that Stealth did as well. Also, what about just using the Sonic Worlds engine for MMF? It doesn't really feel close to the original games, but it is flexible nonetheless and I'm sure there are people here who are used to MMF's interface, etc.
     
  16. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    Unneeded? Do you think the original Sonic games suffered due to system-based limitations? Because I'd lean towards the contrary—the constant pushing of the system's limitations made the games better, not worse. It made the developers of the game more wary of how they design art, how they compose music, and how they program in order to fit a certain specification; as a result, the quality shot up nearly a hundredfold. It takes some real skill to create something beautiful like those games did... I think people are just afraid they can't live up to that.
    This didn't matter in 1991, and I doubt it's going to matter now.
    What?
    Interesting? I call it wasteful. When all the resources you need are already there, then it becomes utterly redundant to try and recreate them. The ultimate goal of the project is completion, not an infinite amount of dicking around.
    The original engine, maybe? I'd say that's pretty well constructed. No disrespect to E02, of course, but come on.
    The only "risk" is that people may propose unoriginal ideas that have already been put into play through other mediums. Hack or not, that will continue to be nothing short of unoriginal and thusly the impact will be diminished on the player.

    Your excuses so far are entirely baseless, and I think I'm less inclined to associate any kind of validity with them. Please stop complaining unless you can make a valid point, please.

    This is why I vomit at the idea that someone proposed you as a potential leader.
     
  17. Digital Xeron

    Digital Xeron

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    Even though I have no bearing of any sort in this project, I must vouch for Jan, he's a well-rooted leader with actual, real, experience in leading things. Area51 in it's prime was an example of that.
     
  18. STHX

    STHX

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    All right Tweaker.
    I'll make an example linked to what Ollie said now, since you added your post when I was replying to Ollie

    You're right, but I'm not speaking of that kind of limitation.
    Let's make an example:
    Many Sonic fans like the soundtrack of Sonic CD. It is very well done, very catchy, and generally accepted as one of the best.
    However, this soundtrack requires CDs, and so, if we want to have a soundtrack like this we will have to do it on the Mega CD.
    Technically, we could make it for the Mega CD and still have a Genesis audio, or both of them (kinda like Megamix). But redbook audio takes space, especially if every act is going to have its own track. Everything else could be limited only for the audio (number of zones and acts, number of options, number of characters).
    This limitation exist because it doesn't matter what kind of compression we will use, the space on the disk will always be limited.

    If we not put Redbook audio, the problem doesn't exist, and we could make it on the MD without problems.

    But this problem doesn't exist with the PC, because the game will support the music formats we want it to support.
    We want a game close to the classic? We could try to implement an engine able to play the exact songs from the game. But we could also put high quality tracks. Yes, maybe the file may be large, but its size won't be a limit.
    On the Genesis, the file size is a limit.

    I only said that it is a pretty solid engine. Also Stealth is always here for our questions.

    True, it is impossible to perfectly replicate the true Sonic Engine. However that engine is full of limitations linked to their platform. The PC one aren't.
    Also, there coluld be a community effort at creating an engine specifically for this game, aimed at replicating perfectly the classic engine.
    Maybe today there isn't a perfect engine. But tomorrow, who knows?


    EDIT: I'll add only this to my post:
    If Mega man 9 was on the NES, every online feature would have been impossible.
    The Endless Stage, one of my favorite things from Mega Man 9, couldn't have been of the NES. There are too many different chunks there.
    Also, as I said, there are some areas which go past the palette limit.

    Yes, this features aren't really needed, but they too are part of what makes Mega Man 9 great.
    I don't want to cause problems, but there could be a solution which makes everyone happy. For me there are no problems if this project becomes an hack.
    But I can't speak for everyone. Even Chimpo went past the Genesis palette limit, because he didn't wanted to make the exact same thing again.
    This is the only thing I fear.
     
  19. Matwek

    Matwek

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    People put far too much pressure on a leader, if it goes well its all "woo, well done community" and if it goes shit its "crappy leader". Thats the main reason why I stepped down, I treated it like a hobby rather than a project and just couldn't keep up with what people wanted.
    I say put Jan in charge and pick a few people to head up each part of the project (Sprites, Art, Music... etc), that way there should always be someone present to comment.

    And my final bit of advice. Everyone wants to make a mark on the project, just don't comprimise the whole thing by trying to force your ideas upon other people. Belive it or not your idea isn't as great as you think it is, if people don't like it learn when to call it quits.
     
  20. Mr. Mash

    Mr. Mash

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    Yeah that's pretty much right.
    I'd say I'm a bit too new here though, to know who to 'vote' for.
     
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