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July 9, 1995
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  1. In Topic: Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

    24 June 2017 - 01:55 AM

    View PostCorralSummer, on 24 June 2017 - 12:21 AM, said:

    It seems like you haven't been paying much attention to what people have been saying about Mania.
    The returning stages is something people don't like about the game. The number of times people in this very thread have mentioned wanting to see a "Mania 2 with all original levels" is quite high.
    And the difference between Mania and those other games with the returning stages is that Mania is doing a lot more with them. Act 1 of Chemical Plant Zone might just be the original level design with a few changes, but act 2 is practically a whole new level. Sonic 4 didn't do this. Sonic 4's levels didn't expand on the originals and add in new things to make them fresh and interesting. Sonic 4, Sonic Forces, do not feature expanded and re-imagined versions of old levels. They're stripped down versions of the originals with none of what made them interesting in the first place. Just because Forces added sand to Green Hill Zone doesn't make it totally new. It's still just a stripped down version of Green Hill Zone. Mania's GHZ on the other hand isn't stripped down at all, act 1 is similar to the original, but act 2 is something totally new. And then there is CPZ act 2 which adds even more than GHZ did.

    And having 3 gameplay styles doesn't mean anything if they're not fun to play. And to all the people criticizing Forces, they don't look fun. They don't look interesting. When I see Forces I don't get excited about playing it I just wonder what the hell they're trying to do with the game. I don't care about a custom character, it's not something I want from a Sonic game. Forces looks really bad to me.
    The reason people want Forces to fail or for Mania to do better than it, is because Mania is the game that they like. If it surpasses Forces in sales that could completely change the future of Sonic games. Sega would want to put more of a focus on the classic games and that's what fans of the classics want.
    It's not that they want the series to fail, It's that we want Classic Sonic to take the lead as the main Sonic.

    If a substantial amount of people disliked the amount of returning stages, then I would have seen loud complaints about it throughout the several forums. So far, this isn't the case; the praise of the stages outweighs the criticisms and people here aren't complaining about this nearly as much as they had done with the aforementioned games. It never mattered much in the first place outside of being an example of cherry-picking about what Sonic Team or Dimps tries to do. Also, you use examples of the Act 2 versions of some of the returning stages in Sonic Mania to show that they allegedly do more, but the Avatar character's Green Hill is also much different level design-wise and it shows how areas of the landscape are worsening because of Eggman's machines. Sonic Forces's Green Hill has a much different concept and aesthetic than Sonic Mania's does.

    Who says that the three gameplay styles aren't fun to play? Your view toward the series is not indubitably representative of anybody else. A major issue that I see in regard to this fanbase is the large amount of nostalgia blindness that make people disregard the newer games just because they're not what they prefer. Of the three major gameplay styles that have appeared in the series, I actually prefer the Adventure style of gameplay. I've wanted a game with different characters being playable with unique gameplay and I've also wanted a Chao Garden system to appear in another game. However, I'm not disregarding the newer games and calling them bad just because they aren't what I would want the most. An Adventure-style game would be wasted anyways, considering how people complain when a character's gameplay mechanics differs from Sonic's gameplay even if it's to utilize the different characters' abilities better.

    View PostMorph, on 24 June 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

    The original Green Hill design was good (hear me out I'll explain in a sec), and the modern take on act 2 also looks good. The Sonic Forces Green Hill design looks like a bad romhack of Sonic 1. Or perhaps a better comparison: Sonic Forces Green Hill, mechanically speaking, looks like a badly designed Green Hill clone with gimmicks to cover up the fact that they couldn't get the momentum right.

    For example: one distinct part of Forces Green Hill that I remember is that footage of Sonic running across an unnecessarily long collapsing bridge with the fish robots jumping up or whatever, and there were sandfalls in the background. That just doesn't serve any purpose other than what I imagine would be spectacle, even though the scene is bland and boring due to the deliberate lack of contrast (because desert or whatever; I don't care about the story). It just looks boring. Mind you, this is coming from the guy who loves Sonic Adventure, king of "hey that looks cool let's make sonic do that thing". In the original Green Hill design, there were seldom times where you were running straight for seemingly no reason other than spectacle. It was either an opportunity to gain speed (to maintain momentum), a safe area to take a break and collect rings or something, or bust.

    It's nitpicking to complain about that bridge section. It lasts only for a few seconds and level sections that were designed solely for the spectacle have been in Sonic games as early as Sonic 3 & Knuckles. As an example: places in which you don't do much other than let Sonic be propelled by springs while he is still rolling followed by that section ending and transitioning to a platforming section or the end of the level. In any case, I personally consider Sonic Forces's Green Hill to be better level-design-wise than Sonic Generations's Green Hill and in the latter, there have been quite a few areas that amounted to holding right.

    View PostSean Evans, on 24 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

    LimitCrown, you seem to have a penchant for trying to absolve Sega and Sonic Team from any potential issue regarding the franchise, and instead peg all of the series problems on the fanbase. Why? I'm seriously confused with how you could honestly blame the series decline in popularity, quality, sales, and relevance on the only people who even bother to keep it relevant in the first place. You act as if we're all just sitting here waiting for the series to die, when it's the opposite. We all very much wants the series to succeed. What we don't want is to be force fed garbage simply because Sonic's name is slapped on it. Had that been the case, stuff like Mania wouldn't have even happened.

    I've noticed how the fanbase tends to judge the video games that Sonic Team or whoever else develops and there are issues with the fanbase that people like to ignore or justify. The high amount of pessimism that constantly surrounds Sonic Team's games simply because they're not like another Sonic Adventure is just one of the many issues that together hamper the developers' efforts to try to please their fans. The fanbase continuously nitpicks over every single little thing that one of their games does and constantly jumps to conclusions. I've also noticed how people use the reception of games that weren't even developed by Sonic Team (Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric) as a prediction for Sonic Forces. Hardly anybody in the fanbase, as far as I can tell, ever takes responsibility for their own jumps to conclusions, faulty judgements, and other errors; it's always Sonic Team's fault or SEGA's fault.

    Also, this is something that I've begun to notice recently, but of the three divisions of the fanbase, you will more likely see claims of a lack of "knowledge" or "understanding" of a preference of a gameplay style being directed more towards Modern Sonic fans. I consider things like that to be detestable.
  2. In Topic: Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

    23 June 2017 - 11:28 PM

    View PostSean Evans, on 23 June 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

    If this were driven purely through nostalgia it would be treated just as blandly as Sonic 4 was. Even when that game was getting praise from the press it was very clear that Sonic Colors was the star attraction, in fact quite a couple of media outlets outright stated they felt Sonic Colors was the more interesting and superior title. Hell Game Scoop, which is comprised of IGN members, outright said that they thought this would be another Sonic 4. A quick cash grab to play up nostalgia. And now look at them, they consider Mania to be one of the best things at E3. Sure everyone likes a good ol' nostalgia trip, but we want a good game more. It's why even though a considerable amount of people liked Generations, and thought Classic Sonic was fun, they complain about things like level design, visuals, and controls. The proof is in the game's knockout reception so far, and the fact that it's in a way, made Sonic more relevant than he has been in years. Not to shit on Forces, but I think the only thing it would have gotten the series is more embarrassment. I have yet to see it spark the same reaction, and from that I can only assume the press doesn't care about it that much.


    View PostMr Lange, on 23 June 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

    View PostLimitCrown, on 23 June 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

    I would attribute Sonic Mania's positive reception almost entirely to nostalgia. It features several stages from previous games; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are playable and are shown with their classic designs like in Sonic 3 and Knuckles; the engine used for the game is the same one that was used for the recent ports of some of the classic games; and because it is being made by people other than Sonic Team, Dimps, or any others that had worked on the recent games, hardly anybody decides to display the exceedingly high pessimism that they've constantly displayed for the games that Sonic Team made. This is not counting the general opinion of the Sonic games that is fostered even by people in the Sonic fanbase and how people tend to say that only the Adventure and Classic games were good.

    Yeah it's not like the previous developers have handled the classic gameplay and style terribly and Mania does it phenomenally that certainly has nothing to do with it no it's just because people are randomly pessimistic towards Sonic Team and Dimps for no reason and it's all just nostalgia even though the previous attempts at nostalgia didn't go that well and the revisited levels are the biggest point of contention in Mania.

    It's none of what you insinuate. It isn't for the reason of the classic gameplay and style being handled terribly. If it was, then Sonic 4 Episode II wouldn't have gotten so much criticism and hatred. Instead, it's because Sonic Team and Dimps didn't do it well enough for them, so they complained. Really, people complain about the stages in both Sonic 4 games referencing older zones by their appearances even when the level design is overall different and uses more varied gimmicks, yet older stages returning in Sonic Mania is generally praised even when some of the level design resemble the original level design of the stages.

    This is especially egregious in the case of Sonic Forces. People derided the game for nostalgia-pandering when Green Hill was going to appear, even when its appearance and its design is more unique than the majority of Green Hill analogues that have appeared in the series. This is only one stage, but apparently this is unacceptable while Sonic Mania is just fine. It features three gameplay styles that are unique enough from each other to make the game feel more varied and the Avatar character is meant to be the main draw, but that is apparently not good enough for several people. There are those who actively hope that Sonic Mania does much better than Sonic Forces or that Sonic Forces fails, yet none of this behavior has been criticized. It's as if several people who call themselves fans want the series to fail.
  3. In Topic: Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

    23 June 2017 - 10:03 PM

    I would attribute Sonic Mania's positive reception almost entirely to nostalgia. It features several stages from previous games; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are playable and are shown with their classic designs like in Sonic 3 and Knuckles; the engine used for the game is the same one that was used for the recent ports of some of the classic games; and because it is being made by people other than Sonic Team, Dimps, or any others that had worked on the recent games, hardly anybody decides to display the exceedingly high pessimism that they've constantly displayed for the games that Sonic Team made. This is not counting the general opinion of the Sonic games that is fostered even by people in the Sonic fanbase and how people tend to say that only the Adventure and Classic games were good.
  4. In Topic: Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

    23 June 2017 - 07:55 PM

    There tends to be much more vitriol directed towards Sonic Forces, at least in these forums and the Sonic Stadium message board, than there is towards Sonic Mania. It is a bit disappointing since it seems as if there is the general impression of only the classic games being particularly great. Sonic Mania, which appeals greatly toward that, of course gets more positive reception.
  5. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    20 June 2017 - 05:34 PM

    The characters are probably unlikely to go their separate ways unless they have missions that require them to be in different places at the same time. The way that Sonic Adventure's story mode works makes sense within the game because the characters tend to perform tasks that don't involve each other.