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  1. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    Yesterday, 01:51 AM

    View PostJosh, on 27 April 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

    View PostVectorCNC, on 27 April 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

    In effect, "people like the momentary bursts of speed from the classics, so let's make an entire game of that" became the mantra. The classics had their momentary cinematic speed bursts, sure, but they didn't dominate the game as with Modern Sonic. They used restraint and balance.


    I've always felt like making the gameplay ABOUT going fast was more about taking advantage of the advent of 3D. The classics were designed the way they were partly because they had to be, because holding a button and making AWESOME things happen would get boring if it was all the game was. But people expected to see the constant spectacle of Sonic's superpower realized in 3D, and so that's where more of the focus went. This can be done very well (Generations) and very poorly (Sonic '06), but I'd argue that trying to make this approach work was the right move.

    Alright, so they decided to listen to their fans, who in general clamored for them to refine the gameplay that they had in Sonic Generations, so they're doing just that while adding another gameplay style. Yet, this is still considered by those here to be them "not listening to their fans" and trying to rely on nostalgia just because of one stage. How can they ever cater to people who can't even keep their criticisms straight and without contradictions in how other games are judged? The main reactions here so far have been people throwing a fit over every minor inconsistency or exaggerated supposed problem like the placement of a rock and the existence of the bridge section then whining about how the game will be terrible. The fanbase being divided does too little to explain these behaviors or how these inconsistencies are from the same people. it's more like many of you were never counting on the possibility of the game being good in the first place.
  2. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    27 April 2017 - 05:33 PM

    The placement isn't even that much of a problem because the small pillars don't obscure its position when it appears on the screen. The reason why I say that the drop dash might be there is that if you look closely, Sonic's spinning animation changes before he touches the ground.
  3. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    27 April 2017 - 05:11 PM

    View PostVectorCNC, on 27 April 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

    View PostLimitCrown, on 27 April 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

    For other examples of holding right to win in older Sonic games, there is the ending section of Carnival Night Act 2. They just place a large amount of speed booster twice in order to propel you through a linear section. You don't need to do any platforming once you reach it and can just hold right or down. Another that I can think of is somewhere near the end or middle of Launch Base Act 1, there is a series of springs and launchers that encourages you to follow the main path in the stage. Those are just a few examples of automation that has been in the series for a while.



    This implies a fundamental misunderstanding of the classics gameplay. These games were strong platformers at heart and the segments of "hold right to win" were not abused, but mere rewards for your progress that showcased the hardware capability and Sonic's characteristic speed. Somehow Sega drank their own Kool-Aid and came to think Sonic's primary objective was to move as fast as possible for as long as possible, to the extent that the game design suffered (long corridors, hold right), and a large portion of the audience was alienated (too hard to play, only Sonic in namesake). In effect, "people like the momentary bursts of speed from the classics, so let's make an entire game of that" became the mantra. The classics had their momentary cinematic speed bursts, sure, but they didn't dominate the game as with Modern Sonic. They used restraint and balance.


    The two portions of Sonic 3 that I used as examples didn't provide those as rewards. No matter whatever physics the game uses, those weren't rewards for progress, but simply there for the sake of it. I've played the game more than enough times to know this and it's the second game that I've ever played. Also, don't act as if major portions of the fanbase weren't asking for them to go back to the Boost-style gameplay after Lost World, wanting them to stick with and refine a gameplay style that they've shown improvements in, or constantly said for a while that Sonic should be about "going fast".

    @D.A. Garden, that rock can be so clearly seen and the screen scrolls slowly enough that simply jumping over it shouldn't be a problem. You also have what seems to be the drop dash. If this is the case, then you could easily maintain your speed with it. It's going to be in Sonic Mania and people haven't complained much, if at all, about it being there.
  4. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    27 April 2017 - 04:19 PM

    It's very confusing to see this being stated as a problem as if this a new thing that hasn't been done in previous games. It makes less sense how there being rocks that halt your movement is used as an example of bad level design. You just press the jump buttion. I thought that "hold right to win" wasn't acceptable.
  5. In Topic: Sonic Forces

    27 April 2017 - 03:54 PM

    For other examples of holding right to win in older Sonic games, there is the ending section of Carnival Night Act 2. They just place a large amount of speed booster twice in order to propel you through a linear section. You don't need to do any platforming once you reach it and can just hold right or down. Another that I can think of is somewhere near the end or middle of Launch Base Act 1, there is a series of springs and launchers that encourages you to follow the main path in the stage. Those are just a few examples of automation that has been in the series for a while.

    View PostS0LV0, on 27 April 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

    This physically hurt me to read. I'm not sure where you got it in your head that people think the design is bad because it's "simple" but it's bad because it's... bad.

    There's barely any synergy or encouragement to use any of what should be momentum based skills. They make call-backs to sections from the original Green Hill but fail to understand what made their own level design competent, instead funneling the player along with boosters and springs - springs placed in the ground in front of waist-high ledges no less. Seriously, who was smoking when they came up with that? Not to mention that bridge-running section at the end, which poses no actual threat whatsoever. When people say "hold right to win" this is the kind of level design they mean. People feel most satisfied playing a game when there's a synergy between effort expended and result produced - this falls flat into the "boring" zone.

    As I pointed out, those springs end up slowing you down if you take them anyways. It's relatively easy to not take them by simply jumping. The other examples of "hold right to win" have been provided by others. Also, you have a spin dash and what is probably the drop dash for going through the stage quickly. That doesn't seem difficult to do. It's nitpicking to complain about a section that lasts only for a couple of seconds when there were even more drawn out ones in the series.