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TGC's Sonic Retrospectives Adventure 2, Heroes, and '06 inbound!

#16 User is offline Yash 

Posted 18 December 2018 - 10:44 AM

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I've never really hated Heroes, but I've never been compelled to actually finish it either, on any of the campaigns.

Doing an SA3 that focused on Sonic, Tails and Knuckles specifically would have been so much better. Or maybe not, Sonic Team was already going downhill.

#17 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 18 December 2018 - 12:42 PM

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Sonic Heroes was a really weird game to me, because I genuinely enjoyed it at first. Sure, it had its low points, like Rail Canyon and Hang Castle, but for the most part I seemed to find a lot of fun in the game even despite its habit of constantly ruining flow for stupid puzzles and bland combat. I beat all of Team Sonic, having a pretty good time except when I wasn't.

But then I played Team Dark. Things that had previously just been nuisances to overcome become far more time-consuming without adding any real challenge or fun to the game. It was during my Team Dark run that I eventually reached the point where I was spending more time between the good parts than on the good parts, and I got fed up and quit. Now? I can't stand the game. There was a line, Team Dark's piss poor balancing hopped over that line, and I was never really able to recover from that.

But you know what? I truly think that if the game exclusively had Team Sonic, but in Team Rose's shorter, less tedious levels, this game could be one that I come back to every few years, alongside SA1 and SA2. There is a good game buried in there somewhere, but it's buried beneath so much banal tedium that it's really hard to find.

#18 User is offline Josh 

Posted 18 December 2018 - 02:35 PM

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I agree, and it's easy to say that Team Sonic alone, with some smart cuts to the padding of stages, would've made for a much more enjoyable game. The problem then would be that the game would be over in a matter of hours. The classics handled that with difficulty spikes, and more than that, replayability, in an era when the former was more common and the latter was much more valued. But by 2004, a full-priced game with so little variety that you could complete in maaaaybe five hours would've gotten awful reviews, and _that's_ a big reason the game is so padded.

It's something the series struggles with to this day - if replayability isn't something most players are interested in doing, how do we make a Sonic game that'll actually make them feel like they're getting their money's worth? They've tried a BUNCH of ridiculous approaches, and analyzing that will be a bit of a throughline whenever I do my next Sonic season.

#19 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 18 December 2018 - 04:15 PM

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View PostJosh, on 18 December 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

They've tried a BUNCH of ridiculous approaches

Since it sounds like you'll probably cover this, I won't say too much so as not to color your future videos, but I've gotta say, I really loved how Generations handled it, using difficult-to-reach collectibles (red rings) and challenges as padding, as if to say the base game may not be too long, but there's a ton of extra stuff to do in here.

#20 User is offline Dark Sonic 

Posted 18 December 2018 - 05:27 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 18 December 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

View PostJosh, on 18 December 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

They've tried a BUNCH of ridiculous approaches

Since it sounds like you'll probably cover this, I won't say too much so as not to color your future videos, but I've gotta say, I really loved how Generations handled it, using difficult-to-reach collectibles (red rings) and challenges as padding, as if to say the base game may not be too long, but there's a ton of extra stuff to do in here.

Generations approach reminds me of a more fleshed out version of SA2 missions. It's a shame they didnt take that approach again I thought it worked well

#21 User is offline Sid Starkiller 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 03:23 PM

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Sonic 06 episode is up (I'm sure Josh will put it up here later today), and I had a weird thought near the end: The absolute disaster that was Sonic 06 kicked off a series of events that eventually led to...Sonic Mania. So my question is: If you had a time machine, would you stop Sonic 06 from happening, knowing that Mania might never be made? I...don't know what I would do.

#22 User is offline Sonic Warrior TJ 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 03:56 PM

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View PostSid Starkiller, on 22 December 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

Sonic 06 episode is up (I'm sure Josh will put it up here later today), and I had a weird thought near the end: The absolute disaster that was Sonic 06 kicked off a series of events that eventually led to...Sonic Mania. So my question is: If you had a time machine, would you stop Sonic 06 from happening, knowing that Mania might never be made? I...don't know what I would do.


Oh, I wouldn't keep it from being made, but if I had the ability to, I'd ensure that the once planned PC version eventually saw a release. It's a terrible game, but a good example of how not to make an action platformer. It's one of those games everyone should be able to take a lesson from.

#23 User is offline Josh 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 05:52 PM

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The goal here was to present as unique a take as I possibly could on a game that's been discussed to death, and I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Hope you enjoy!

#24 User is offline UpCDownCLeftCRightC 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 06:34 PM

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View PostSid Starkiller, on 22 December 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

So my question is: If you had a time machine, would you stop Sonic 06 from happening, knowing that Mania might never be made? I...don't know what I would do.

Uh, absolutely yes. 06 is as negatively impactful as S2 or S3K are positively impactful. Mania is great, one of the best games in the franchise, but as a 2017 retro style release was not of the kind of magnitude that could erase the stain of 06 from the franchise's history. It will take a major effort from a big title to undo that harm.

If 06 had not happened, there are all sort of directions the series may have gone in. I think the adventure games are very flawed but I can at least acknowledge that a concept like the sonic stages from SA1 coupd be a lot better with more focus and dev time. Would I rather have that than Mania? As much as I love Mania, yeah probably. Because then Sonic's reputation never gets as low and the series remains a AAA series with lots of support and potential for great games, building off of successful iterations.
This post has been edited by UpCDownCLeftCRightC: 22 December 2018 - 06:41 PM

#25 User is offline XRick 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 06:58 PM

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Man, that sure was quite a melancholic take on Sonic06. At the end, I was feeling moved by your speech...until you ended with "and all we were left with was...bullshit" :v:/>/>/>/>
At first, I wasn't much intent on watching any of your videos simply due to their length, but in the end I've seen all of the latest ones, and may go back to S2&3K's, to say the least.

While 06 may have killed the Adventure Series, it was more of a "final nail in the coffin", with Heroes and Shadow having started the downfall. At least, it was so to me.
When I saw the first trailers and demo videos of 06, I was elated by how it seemed to be turning out. An even cooler-looking Sonic, amazing HD 3D sceneries, a realistic-looking Eggman (I so wish ST could bring him back), all of that seemed like the bright future Yuji Naka made us believe before the game's release.

I finally got to play it properly a few years later, when I and my brother bought a PS3. I've never been much of a player, but I did decently with SA1&2, Generations, and even MK9.
But 06...oh, man, I had to open that can of worms. It was such a chore, such a pain to go through all of it. My brother didn't even feel like touching it, so I had to do it myself. Painstakingly. I managed to complete all of the story and got only one mission left to complete, but I got bored of it's crazy difficulty and left it to oblivion. And now my PS3 is apparently dead, so all of my efforts on those games when down the drain.

All of this to say that 06 turned out as a tremendous disappointment of a Sonic game, more so than Heroes or Shadow, and led the franchise towards the current, childish, inconsequential, disappointing iteration. At least to me. Werehog, Wisps, White Space, Edgelord, any of those things could have been made in a much different way had ST managed to get 06 properly completed. It's quite saddening.

@Josh, keep them coming. I've been enjoying your reviews (SA2's could have benefited from @Windii's intel, but oh well) and may be up to see more of them.
Keep up the good work.
This post has been edited by XRick: 22 December 2018 - 07:09 PM

#26 User is offline E-122-Psi 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 08:36 PM

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I have to admit looking at Next Gen I still feel tragically urged to enjoy it. I mean the plot is an abomination, and some of the gameplay styles were awful, but the levels and mechanics, like Josh mentions, still kinda feel like they SHOULD work, I actually feel more comfortable with them than the boost setup that was introduced afterwards.

Some things actually do almost work as a refinement of what SA1 played with. I mean Wave Ocean is a HD Emerald Coast but with more developed intertwining character paths for example, then we have larger scale Adventure Fields that at least have some more developed degree of accessible terrain and missions. It basically expands on what I wanted out of SA1, I should have enjoyed this. But alas the whole thing is a chore to play through due to bugs, imbalanced physics, and enforced gimmick changes now happening in the middle of levels (while SA2 and Heroes already made this a momentum breaker, Next Gen takes the worst of it and spams it in a completely un-fluid manner).

#27 User is offline Glaber 

Posted 22 December 2018 - 10:22 PM

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I'm still surprised that out of all the issues, the issue of the BASIC JUMP ATTACK DOING NOTHING, is never addressed by anyone reviewing this game. And that because of that, Sonic is FORCED to use the Homing attack to attack at all.

#28 User is online Laughingcow 

Posted 23 December 2018 - 04:42 AM

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Sonic 06....Yeah, there's nothing about it that nobody else hasn't already said. So instead, I'd rather post what the devs have said about it.

http://info.sonicret...ehog_(2006_game)
"The reason why we probably ended up with what we see today, involves a lot of reasons. One is that we did want to launch the title around Christmas, and we had the PS3 launch coming up, but we had to develop for Microsoft's 360 at the same time and the team had an awful lot of pressure on them. It was very hard for the team to try and see how we were going to come out with both versions together with just the one team. It was a big challenge."
Yojiro Ogawa

http://sonic.sega.jp...anna/index.html
“Development on a next-generation machine was very difficult, with us with a lot of difficult aspects of things we didn't understand. Understanding the variety of new technology, understanding the new hardware, handling the enormous amount of information and handling the new technology, these were all aspects that far surpassed both my expectations and experience.”
Shun Nakamura

https://web.archive....PostPageIndex=3
"It was the first iteration of the engine and we didn't have any time to polish and we were just churning out content as quick as we could,"
"We missed out on that really important time to polish and tune and manipulate the map and make sure that the world really felt good and the gameplay felt good," he says. "Because it didn't have that, it didn't turn out as good as the development team wanted."
Takashi Iizuka

Hard times for the Blue Blur.

#29 User is offline UpCDownCLeftCRightC 

Posted 23 December 2018 - 10:45 AM

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I absolutely positively hate almost everything single about this game with a burning passion. And have since I first played it and thusly refused to touch it ever again. I was not an internet poster back then but somehow I knew that this game would be a tragedy for Sonic. Nothing fit. It was Sonic trying to be final fantasy instead of trying to be Sonic. Everything that started in some way with adventure 2 in terms of the series losing its identity reared its ugly head like a cystic blackhead. One of the worst unintended consequences of the game is that there are legions of Adventure era fans who believe in the hypothetical potential this game had if done right in their eyes. To me that is reprehensible. This game was a turd buried underneath a shit pile. I cannot express enough words about how angry and depressed (in the context of video games only) this game made me as a lifelong fan, who witnessed S3K and waited for the series to achieve its 3D equivalent of that. It breaks me to know that SoJ was totally okay with pushing this out the door, since I've supported them almost my entire life.

This is why I said what I said earlier. Mania in 2017 could not possibly counter the legacy this game left, since it was a smaller scale retro release. 3D sonic needs a Mania quality equivalent in order for the ship to be truly righted. Not a 7/10 or 8/10 type game like colors or generations, but a 9/10 or 10/10. It needs a truly outstanding game to establish a new foundation to be iterated upon. Until then we will not escape from underneath the shadow this game created.

I cannot empathize with people who have attachment to this game. I generally have a flexible attitude but I literally could not care less about positive nostalgia with respect to this title. This game almost killed sonic. Sonic Team should forever stay far away this direction forever. Having the title Sonic the hedgehog stamped on the front of this game is like an ironic, enduring curse, because it is arguably the most popular and infamous example of the franchise in the modern era of gaming. It and everything it represents needs to be buried underneath the grave of Yuji Naka's final contract with SEGA.

#30 User is offline XRick 

Posted 23 December 2018 - 11:19 AM

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You mentioned SA2 starting the series' downfall, in your opinion, but what about SA1? Wasn't it a nice transition of the Classics into 3D at the time?

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