[steveswede]

****Discuss ideas or issues not pertaining to specific thread****

I've brought this thread back because I wanted to ask about if there is going to be a 2 player test? I wonder if there is going to be a possibility to have duel screens for 2 player competition.

This post has been edited by steveswede: 29 April 2010 - 10:50 AM

[Canned Karma]

General project discussion can be held in this thread.

In the future, please e-mail one of the staff before opening a new thread. We're trying to keep things as tidy as possible.

[Canned Karma]

Cross post from the Project Announcements topic:

Sonic Retro Community Progress Report

After the overhaul of the S2HD subforum, very specific goals were created with the promise that the staff would be readily available to guide work done by the community. Two and a half months was set as the timeframe, with extremely reasonable goals to achieve. The overall goal was to give the community an opportunity to create key segments of Hill Top Zone from the ground up for inclusion in the alpha release.

Here's what we've seen, here's what we haven't:

Character art—good submissions and revision work has been done on the Eagle. Although it wasn't assigned as a goal, the work done on the Chicken has also been impressive.

Badnik art—one attempt was made on the Rexon and nothing since despite directed feedback from Cerulean Nights; one attempt has also been made on the Spiker, with the same result as the Rexon. There have also been no submissions for the Zone boss. There has been more discussion over the Nebula, which is -not- one of the current goals, than for any of the other HTZ enemy art combined. Work on the Ghora's flames was going well up until the overhaul, and then came to an abrupt halt.

Level art—Work was started on the level objects, including the rock, the lift platform, the seesaw, the door, and the tree during March. In the past few weeks there have been no updates for any of them. The existing quality on the submissions so far, aside from the rock and the seesaw, leaves a lot to be desired. The tree has also generated its fair share of debate, but the top section of it is still very unpolished. Actual ground tiles, such as the S tunnel listed in the goals, have seen zero attempts.

Music—Mesmonium has created an excellent submission and is in the process of revising it. I would still like to see steveswede polish his piece some more as well.

You wanted this to be an open community project, but there's been very little actual doing on that front. Early on, when the excitement with the topics overhaul was fresh, this was not the case and we saw plenty of activity. Since mid-April, however, this has not been the case; with the exception of a few contributors who have provided pieces on a consistent basis, it's unfair to the staff for you to tell us you want to participate and then leave us as the ones to do all the work. Because make no mistake: we certainly can, and we will one way or another. But don't expect to get credit for work you haven't done.

We've given you goals that are appropriate and fit with the current level of progress toward the alpha release. That said, if you can't make these goals, let us know; we are open to re-evaluating some things if it will really make a difference in the community's progress. But, the staff is not about to just let this devolve into a 'do whatever you want on your own timetable' sort of deal.

Because of outside events delaying this progress report by two weeks, I am extending the original deadline of June 1st to June 15th. That said, whether HTZ makes it into the alpha or not is very much in your hands. I know the talent exists here to make that happen. I hope the community here uses the next few weeks well toward that end. As always, the staff will be on hand to field questions and provide direction around this.

This post has been edited by Canned Karma: 16 May 2010 - 07:48 PM

[Conan Kudo]

You wanted this to be an open community project, but there's been very little actual doing on that front. Early on, when the excitement with the topics overhaul was fresh, this was not the case and we saw plenty of activity. Since mid-April, however, this has not been the case; with the exception of a few contributors who have provided pieces on a consistent basis, it's unfair to the staff for you to tell us you want to participate and then leave us as the ones to do all the work. Because make no mistake: we certainly can, and we will one way or another. But don't expect to get credit for work you haven't done.

I don't know if it is fair to say that the potential contributors voluntarily caused the activity to drop. April and May are months full of school examinations in high school and college. My own college exams ended on the third week of April. Several people I know have exams going from the third week of April until the third week of May. Tests, AP Exams, and Final Exams tend to put a stop do any personal work...

I think we'll actually see a huge influx of contributions starting in June.

[steveswede]

At the moment with my HTZ. I'm not going to be touching that until I get a more powerful PC. The plugins are maxing out my system. I've already had to freeze track some of my sounds. But this doesn't help experimenting, tweaking sounds. It is one of the reasons I haven't touched my MCZ version because it's CPU intensive (not to mention that trill is a pain in the ass to do with the layering of the main lead).


As for the art contributions. While I can't comment on why it's been thin. But I'm guessing that people just feel shut out from this project as non of the community are seeing any progress from the main staff. The staffs artwork would bring inspiration to people to get their asses into gear and get more people to contribute more.

I feel that if you want to get more people to contribute. Then you need something to show. Hopefully the new demo will spring life into this project again.

I would advise that you include a message in the credits of the demo to encourage people to come and join Sonic Retro to help HD version to become a full reality.

But you also make the Sonic 2HD forum open to everyone. It doesn't help the fact that people have to go through a lengthy process of join up to Sonic Retro. You really need to have a good talk to the Retro staff on how to make contributions easier for people outside the Retro community.

[MaximusDM]

I think what happened here is that some really good artwork was contributed, but Staff members didn't like it, lurkers and artists alike look at that and think well if they don't like that then there's no way they would like my art work so I'm not even going to bother.

The bar is set high and its intimidating as hell that is scares a lot of people. Then with the progress whatever it is you people are doing behind closed doors or whatever you want to call it, the secret society; it looks like there is no progress being made. So a lot of artists and potential contributors see that the only artwork ever accepted is the ones by the staff so let them just make the whole game and I'll play it when its done in 15 years.

Ever since it turned to a closed project the community left, no one submits anything because of the reasons listed above, since no one submits anything; no one visits the forums anymore because no one see progress, and without contributions and progress you get the status of where the project is now:

Only the staff are making the game and everyone is just sitting back watching.

[Canned Karma]

Yes, the bar is set high. That's not going to change. If it wasn't, why would someone want to put effort into S2HD in the first place? That's terrible reasoning. It shouldn't be intimidating. We've set up multiple, detailed guides to help people along, and we've provided feedback to help people toward that end whenever possible. We're just about on call to help people out here. When people ignore our feedback and do their own thing and then quit because a piece they started isn't heading in the right direction, I think it's unfair to blame the staff for doing our jobs.

This isn't a closed project MDM—the forum overhaul and creation of the goals we currently have should show you that. Having directed goals instead of allowing people to run amok and create scattered artwork is not a workable method. If that's your definition of what a project has to be in order to be open, I'm sorry. You won't find that here. We're trying to give you guys the chance to create a zone instead of us doing it because that is the definition of what a community project is. If people aren't satisfied with that, let it be known. If Retro no longer wants this to be a project it is interested in contributing to, let us know. I don't think that's the case yet, but I'll let others chime in to correct me if I'm mistaken.

[MaximusDM]

I'm not trying to flame, and I'm not attacking the staff. I am just telling you what I am looking at from my perspective.

The art standard is intimidating whether you want it to be or not. I'll tell you this. Any art work contribution (for me at least) creates some kind of spark of enthusiasm for other artists as they look at it and in their mind they feel they can best it with their own creation. Its that which buds the community with discussion amongst retro users, sonic fans, with the artist of the said contribution. And then when someone else gets inspired by that to create their own it might be a different interpretation and it leads to more discussion,more art, etc. At least with that people it makes the forum ACTIVE.

I wouldn't have even started work on any of my concept art had I not liked Gambit's CPZ tube. And had not got feedback from users, I wouldn't have continued doing more.

Now with less user activity on the project than ever it is a problem to get anything out of its users as far as contributions with all these filters and walls that are there to block you from feeling you made any progress on anything.

Its also possible that the specific targets contribute to lack of activity as well. Some artists might not feel its in their ability or they would rather put their time into another aspect which currently isn't a project target. That leaves them doing nothing as they have no interest of the current target and are just lurking until their target comes up or someone submits art to look at and ONLY to look at, because why even bother commenting on it? Your comment means nothing unless you are staff. Which leads to more lurking and less activity.

Lack of activity leads to lack of interest.

[The Growler]

Whether HTZ makes it into the alpha or not is very much in your hands. I know the talent exists here to make that happen. I hope the community here uses the next few weeks well toward that end. As always, the staff will be on hand to field questions and provide direction around this.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I've been thinking of a [temporary!] 'slogan' for S2HD which will remind us why we need community support.

Something like this perhaps?:

"A project cannot continue without a contributing community"

This post has been edited by The Growler: 17 May 2010 - 09:38 AM

[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

That said, whether HTZ makes it into the alpha or not is very much in your hands.

The art standard is intimidating whether you want it to be or not. I'll tell you this. Any art work contribution (for me at least) creates some kind of spark of enthusiasm for other artists as they look at it and in their mind they feel they can best it with their own creation. Its that which buds the community with discussion amongst retro users, sonic fans, with the artist of the said contribution. And then when someone else gets inspired by that to create their own it might be a different interpretation and it leads to more discussion,more art, etc. At least with that people it makes the forum ACTIVE.

Why not include placeholders and unfinished artwork in the game? In every game development, at some point, you have a lot of placeholders and unfinished artwork elements, especially before the Beta release. Placeholders can let the game development continue while artists are at work. And while developers integrate new assets, artists can see the results in-game, and eventually enhance them to fix problems.

My previous employer once said to me when I was a beginner at work, that a good formula in video games development is that the Alpha release contains most key features programmed, while almost no final graphics are present. It is not like you can make a part of the game 100% final for an Alpha release, but you can make a little for each part of it. Even if Sonic 2 HD Alpha comes out with the original graphics for the most part, this is a major and very important step forward for the development team. And even with all that in mind, this would be awesome if you can spot here and there some (even unfinished) elements and sounds that where committed on this forum, and that are HD-updated.

[Iceman404]

Well, I'm not a new member (lurker), but I believe the problem is (And stated many times before), more of what the staff is hiding behind the scenes needs to be shown to the public community.
Its really hard to explain but, when art is shown, other lurking artists will eventually burst into activity and contributing because the art will interest them and they'll all want to show off theirs.
Staff shows B.T.S. art = community interest erupts = More art from the community = More interest = Even more art!
When more art is shown it becomes interesting and more people actually look, tell others, post, and then (maybe) contribute! Sure, there may be a lot of complaining and C+C, but at least more people are interested and posting.
You can't really blame the community for lack of art, it's not peoples fault if they're not interested enough anymore.
Why not show people that new Sonic walking animation? Even that could spark activity and attention.

Oh dear, this is so hard to explain...
But basically, the staff needs to find some way to spark interest again.
Also, its the end of the school year, its a rough time of exams.




I hope I've said this all right.

This post has been edited by Iceman404: 17 May 2010 - 08:08 PM

[zemulii]

Well as for why I personally haven't been active in awhile... that's just because I've had a heck of a lot to think about lately. I haven't really had the time to work on anything, and what with all the pressure I'm going through I'm kind of in the middle of a creative block anyway!

I'm still checking the forums quite regularly. I have to agree with everyone else. The staff needs to be more open with their own work. The place needs to feel alive. And I'm sure there are plenty of "lurkers" just waiting for the right moment to join in . I mean I was a lurker for about a year before I finally decided to actually do something... and why? Because there was so much going on at the time and I just had to be involved!

Also like I said before... if people don't intend to work on a piece anymore, they really should make it known. I'm sure some of the artists that have been MIA do intend to come back and complete their work (like me), but I also wouldn't be surprised if others have simply given up. But how are we to know that? As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with working on an alternative version of a piece that's already been "taken" (much like the music - of which there are often many). People may not realise that though and feel like they'd be "taking over" or stealing the glory... or something.

I don't feel the standard is set too high though. The staff members have been pretty good about help and suggestions. And honest when they need to be if something just isn't headed in the right direction. Which saves everyone a lot of time. It may be a little intimidating, but I don't really see any way past it if the project is going to keep it's quality standards. The main problem here is lack of activity from the core members of the project. The help and support is great; but the (non existent) sharing leaves a lot to be desired.

Just a bit more of the "Hey, look at this cool new [something] we've done!" sort of thing to keep the ball rolling.

This post has been edited by zemulii: 17 May 2010 - 09:07 PM

[HeartAttack]

A boss NEEDS his employees, because he can't do all the work alone, no matter how hard he wants to. You can't run a store when people have no interest in working at that store, just like you can't complete a community project without the community being interested in working on it. In both cases, you need to offer something that will make it worth your "worker's" while to contribute. In the work place, you've got bonuses. Drawings. Employee of the month; things to keep those who contribute to your business motivated. In this case, simply sharing more info on "what's going on" would be a nice motivator. People aren't getting paid to do this, so the big motivator here for users to keep contributing would be allowing them to see how their contributions are helping in the overall scheme. If people feel they are giving and giving yet getting nothing in return (ie: visible progress on the project), then they will stop contributing.

No trolling or flame-bait or anything like that - it's just that I found the whole "if you don't wanna help, then we can and will do it by ourselves!" attitude to be silly, because it's totally not true.

[Daveydude]

I have to agree with everyone else. I check these forums regularly (at least once every 3 days) but often there is no visible progress. People like to see results not hear words. A bad example, but once my group of class mates were told on a hike "don't worry we are almost there!" This happened 8 times, and we arrived 50 minutes or so after the first time. That person was the most hated person on the camp. Why? They had the map and didn't show anyone our location merely told us we were close. (This is travelling through the desert with 20kg on your back)

In other words, I (and I am sure many others) would like to see:
- Summaries of what is completed
- Links to the music/art that is completed
- Summaries of what is being completed at the moment (by other people)
- Summaries of what needs to be completed, noting the priorities

At the moment it almost feels like there is no work to be done until someone else is finished. This would certainly be appreciated.

[Canned Karma]

I can understand April to early/mid May being tough times for the reasons talked about. The progress report was delayed for similar reasons. As I said, we're open to re-evaluating things when/if people really start cranking on getting assets made and refined.

HeartAttack, the main motivation behind the goals we've set is to allow the community to create something that will be included in the alpha. Your boss/employee metaphor is a little confusing, as employees work at the whim of their employer, who pays them and can fire them if they don't carry out their responsibilities. That's not the situation we have here. People are here because they want to be here.

Daveydude, for a list of music that has been approved, please check the approved music topic. For a list of what needs to be completed, please check the goals topic. Neither of these things are new. Saying there is no work to be done just doesn't make sense right now given what's been outlined, and asked for repeatedly in both the art and music threads.

A common theme is that people want to see things the staff has been working on. Fair enough, I'd want to see what's been going on too. I've talked with some of the other staff members, and we're going to be showing off some of the assets we're currently working on for you guys. That said, understand that we're going to be frustrated if we show off what we're doing and the community here continues to stagnate. You've all hit on a general lack of motivation being a reason behind people being more proactive. The staff will feel much the same way if our in progress assets don't serve to get people moving again.

This post has been edited by Canned Karma: 18 May 2010 - 10:43 AM