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***Tech Demo Second Release!*** (postbugfix) Discuss the second release of the tech demo, report bugs etc

#16 User is offline Skaarg 

Posted 03 October 2008 - 11:35 PM

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The S loops are a little bit better in this version, but I still feel they need a lot of work.

The bridge is also very nice if you're running or spindashing across, but if you walk slowly across the bridge lowering is very choppy.

Also for the ARZ loop if you go to the right side and try to spindash back through the loop you will go flying off the one of the little humps before the loop about 90% of the time.

#17 User is offline NioZero 

Posted 03 October 2008 - 11:48 PM

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mi pc also is running more low than before... maybe the disk acces to generate those .s2r file are the reasons...

some quick notes...
- 3X: sonic can walk downside in the left side (its this fine?)
- 2X: sonic can't be squashed by the squares and I think the gravity is a little lower..
- 2X: sonic can jump to the higher platforms without collisioning... (nestled loop 2x size stage)


the chemical zone song is really good... and the graphics improvement too...


looking forward for the next release.... :(

#18 User is offline GARY M 9 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 12:15 AM

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I love how the chain bridge looks in 4x, but not how Chemical Plant Zone's music sounds. D:

Also, the processor system requirement should probably be lowered to around 2.21GHz since this comp runs it at full speed on full screen on 1-4x.

#19 User is offline Vincent 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 02:17 AM

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QUOTE (LOst @ Oct 4 2008, 02:05 AM) [post="231710"]Posted Image

**
P.s. I excuse myself for presenting the old 256-color Sonic version. Some EHZ blocks, flowers and Palmtrees are still affected by it, but
this is the last time you'll see these, from next release only real HD stuff.
So guys, continue posting your awesome contributions!!! :(

#20 User is offline Canned Karma 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 02:24 AM

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You wanted a bug report, here's some 'light' reading for you:

1x
With Sonic:
Tube area still has 'suction' in ball form. Especially obvious when standing right next to the lower entrance at a standstill, and going into a roll. Sonic is slowly sucked in, and then half a second later, accelerates a little ways up before rolling back down.

With Knuckles:
Same issues as with Sonic. When gliding near to the ground near the lower right ramp, Knuckles will slide up along it.

2x STunnel
With Sonic:
Sonic clips through the blocks.

Same double suction issue as in the 1x S tube.

With Knuckles:
Spindashing up off the ramp on the right side of the screen puts Knuckles into the same vertical flipping animation as if he'd jumped off a spring.

I was able to get Knuckles to reverse direction inside of the tube for half a second before going back up in the right direction.

Now onto the truly crazy stuff. If you approach the S tube from the upper entrance and glide into it then immediately jump, there's a good chance you'll be able to break the constraint making Knuckles keep in ball form. Once you've done this, he'll flop around from surface to surface in his standing pose trying to walk or run on either of the tube walls he's closest to. Gravity is still in effect while he's in this state, but he cannot jump or roll into a ball unless you crouch again at the bottom (before exiting the tunnel) and charge up a spindash. Releasing a spindash will put him back into the correct sequence for it, e.g. always being in ball form in that area.

I had to screenshot this happening a few times as proof:
Posted Image
Sorry about the coloring on the top right screen, I accidentally hit Enter+PrtScrn just as I was doing the screencap, booting the demo out to the YOU CAN HELP TOO page.

Knux also can't get any distance while gliding if he's above the 'line' where the grass on the topmost hill would extend across the screen. You can test this by trying to glide after jumping on the right block moving up and down when it's near the top of the screen. Knuckles will float down vertically, and after crossing this invisible barrier will then start moving to the left or right depending on which direction he's facing.

2x Test Stage
I didn't find anything out of the oridinary in my tests with Sonic. With Knuckles it's a little different.

When you glide into the middle part of the half loop on the right side, he'll instantly transition from the gliding animation to the running one and continue to run up the loop and along the ceiling if you keep holding right. **Later note: after trying this on other areas in the demo with ramped areas, it looks like Knux will do this on every one of them. Was this part of the original game physics being recreated and not a bug after all?

2x NestledLoop
With Sonic:

This area was bug city compared to the other stages in the demo. The craziest bug I came across was one that caused Sonic to teleport through a floor onto the one above him. To do this I was trying to jump at the left pillar on the bottom floor in the center to make him clip through it to the left like he'd done a couple times already. This time he went straight up through the floor to appear on the ramp leading down.

This also made Sonic change layers (?) to the darker background ramp in the center area.

Various momentum based bugs for the area:
With Sonic standing at the left side of screen, run forward until you come to the first dip in the ground. At this area there are two flowers in the background texture. Just before Sonic hits the first one while he's running, jump. For me, this made him jump up, roll diagonally right down a surface that doesn't exist, and hit the ramp in a way that Sonic immediately transitions to the walking animation and walks up the right wall of the ramp. I hope that explanation made sense. This could just be a part of how the physics engine operates, but it looked incredibly odd to me.

If you stand right at the point of the dip I described and jump to the right, you'll see Sonic clip through the pillar and walk down the invisible diagonal ramp. I was able to repeat this easily.

3x res Super Climb w/Sonic
**After reading the thread, it looks like this issue's already been covered**
When Sonic is walking toward the right side of the screen and jumps toward the straight diagonal area, he will flip upside down and walk directly on that surface for a moment or so. This also happens on the diagonal on the lower left side of the middle block - on this one I was able to run left along the floor, jump up immediately beneath it, and make Sonic walk backward along the diagonal. Jumping from a standstill directly up to that surface also makes Sonic run partially upside down along it.

If you spindash into either of the ramp areas, Sonic will remain in ball form and spin in place along the corner area for a couple seconds before gravity kicks in again.

4x res Open Stage w/Sonic
On the swinging platform I ran into a couple curious things:
I had Sonic walk forward and roll into a ball when at the top of the platform's swing on the right side while he was walking left. As the platform swings back toward the left side and Sonic is moving in rolled up form, he'll temporarily get disconnected from the platform and roll in place in mid-air before falling back to the ground. I also tested this coming from the left side with the same effect. It almost looked like Sonic was running into an invisible wall that extended out from the blue orb the chain is swinging from. If Sonic isn't rolling far enough for his momentum to take him off the platform, this will not happen.

A variation of this effect happens if you move Sonic toward the edge without rolling into a ball. It will look like Sonic is walking on a flat horizontal plane for a moment before gravity takes hold and pulls him back to the platform again.

If you have Sonic in his arms flailing at the edge position on the left side of the platform as it's swinging to the left, it will dump him onto the ground when it reaches its highest point on the left side.

4x Multi Bridge Stage
With Sonic:
More of a fun note than anything, but if you jump on the bridge and hit jump again just before it seems like Sonic is going to come into contact with it's bounding box, it will look like Sonic bounced off the bridge without it moving at all. If your timing is good enough you can repeat this indefinitely!

That's all the testing I'm doing for tonight. Another fine job LOst!

#21 User is offline SoNick 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:00 AM

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Ah... for the most part your bug report is good, but I must call into question a few of them that you listed:

View PostCanned Karma, on Oct 4 2008, 02:24 AM, said:

4x res Open Stage w/Sonic
On the swinging platform I ran into a couple curious things:
I had Sonic walk forward and roll into a ball when at the top of the platform's swing on the right side while he was walking left. As the platform swings back toward the left side and Sonic is moving in rolled up form, he'll temporarily get disconnected from the platform and roll in place in mid-air before falling back to the ground. I also tested this coming from the left side with the same effect. It almost looked like Sonic was running into an invisible wall that extended out from the blue orb the chain is swinging from. If Sonic isn't rolling far enough for his momentum to take him off the platform, this will not happen.

A variation of this effect happens if you move Sonic toward the edge without rolling into a ball. It will look like Sonic is walking on a flat horizontal plane for a moment before gravity takes hold and pulls him back to the platform again.

Ah... this is caused by a difference between the Sonic 2 and S3K movement engines; the exact behavior you described occurs on the moving platforms in Marble Garden (although it was hard to test due to the platorms' speed!), but it does not occur in Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2.
Of course, the former behavior occurs in Knuckles in Sonic 2.
I really don't know what to suggest here.

Quote

If you have Sonic in his arms flailing at the edge position on the left side of the platform as it's swinging to the left, it will dump him onto the ground when it reaches its highest point on the left side.

This sort of happens in the original game; I couldn't get close enough to the edge to reach the "flailing arms" animation, as being near enough to the left edge while the platform moved left (or right edge as the platform moved right) for the balancing animation to start caused the Sonic to fall off the platform!

Quote

4x Multi Bridge Stage
With Sonic:
More of a fun note than anything, but if you jump on the bridge and hit jump again just before it seems like Sonic is going to come into contact with it's bounding box, it will look like Sonic bounced off the bridge without it moving at all. If your timing is good enough you can repeat this indefinitely!

Ah... I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here.
I think that you're saying that if you time your jumps right, you can make the bridge barely move. This is normal.
The "if your timing is good, you can repeat this indefinitely" makes me unsure, though; after about a minute or so of trying, I still couldn't get it to work a second time.
Of course, it's entirely possible that my timing sucks! :E

#22 User is offline LOst 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 05:07 AM

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View PostGerbilSoft, on Oct 4 2008, 04:46 AM, said:

Seems to be broken in WINE:

fixme:ole:CoCreateInstance no instance created for interface {bf798031-483a-4da2-aa99-5d64ed369700} of class {25e609e4-b259-11cf-bfc7-444553540000}, hres is 0x80070057
err:dinput:DirectInput8Create CoCreateInstance failed with hr = -2147024809; Try running wineprefixcreate to fix it.


About it not working in Wine, I am truly sorry about that. It was expected from my side since the new tech demo uses pixel shaders now. Even if it is supported by your computer, it may not be emulated by OpenGL. Direct3D9c is needed, sorry.


View PostSANiK, on Oct 4 2008, 07:38 AM, said:

Yeah - major slowdown for me as well in this build.

Like 17 FPS from 47 FPS

Yes, it would happen sooner or later as the graphics quality increases. It was a matter of time before all of you with less that 50 FPS will suffer even more D: The system requirements suggest, you need more powerful graphics card to run such high res textures.


General graphics:
I can't do much about graphics. It is the bottleneck. I have proof, see demo in 4X resolution, as it is the heaviest (that will ever be in the final game) calculations.
Graphics is the key to this project. As I have heard many times from the project lead, this is an art project. The "HD" resolution factor can't be taken away, or optimized for lower quality. So it is out of my hands.


So about the list of bugs. I am surprised all of them are in the original game as well (oh didn't you check? Ouch). But this is what is great about it: We have the power to fix them! But I have to be careful, as many of the bugs have to do with jumping onto a path. Changing such a thing will throw this game off the Sonic 2-3K chart. Is that something people want? Then I will do it. An example is time attack, where in the original, you can boost your speed by jumping in special angles, to reach paths more quickly without losing speed. It will constantly slow you down if the path must be entered from above, or the full player height.

To sum it up:
If you are getting bad performance, even at the license screen, you simply need a 3D accelerated graphics card (we are talking new genration here, not Voodoo 4 or Geforce II). It won't get faster, the further we get into the project. The resolution will widen up with widescreen HD. There will be at least 1 more layer of high texturing. See it as neededing a Dreamcast to run a game, now you need a 3D hardware accelerated graphics card to run this game.
This post has been edited by LOst: 04 October 2008 - 05:10 AM

#23 User is offline Ollie 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 05:56 AM

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I find it very odd how I've just played this second release and it runs at 2-4 fps, so I was thinking maybe it is my computer since the last one ran at 55-56, so I tried the first release again and it's still playing a that speed. Does this ow mean that people with normal "Family" spec'd computer can no longer play the game?

Family Specification computers, I mean by a normal sized ram for XP (512mb) and a not an amazing processor (2.0ghz)

Is there something that I'm missing here that makes it so it needs high specification. :S Because the last tech demo ran fine, I was rather impressed, I'm just wondering why this release makes it so unplayable.

View PostLOst, on Oct 4 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

Yes, it would happen sooner or later as the graphics quality increases. It was a matter of time before all of you with less that 50 FPS will suffer even more D: The system requirements suggest, you need more powerful graphics card to run such high res textures.

To sum it up:
If you are getting bad performance, even at the license screen, you simply need a 3D accelerated graphics card (we are talking new genration here, not Voodoo 4 or Geforce II). It won't get faster, the further we get into the project. The resolution will widen up with widescreen HD. There will be at least 1 more layer of high texturing. See it as neededing a Dreamcast to run a game, now you need a 3D hardware accelerated graphics card to run this game.


Oh so we all need to go out and by top of the range stuff. Maybe we don't have the money too? You do realise just how many people will not be able to play this game now. =\
This post has been edited by Ollie: 04 October 2008 - 06:00 AM

#24 User is offline LOst 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:13 AM

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View PostOllie, on Oct 4 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

I find it very odd how I've just played this second release and it runs at 2-4 fps, so I was thinking maybe it is my computer since the last one ran at 55-56, so I tried the first release again and it's still playing a that speed. Does this ow mean that people with normal "Family" spec'd computer can no longer play the game?

No, absolutely not! The project lead will discuss this issue. This is a community project, and it won't work unless most of the people here are happy.
The issue is definatelly the pixel shader at this moment. To me it is normal to have pixel shaders in game. But if this game is targeted to the family range of computers, it can be taken out. Quality of effects will be counted out though which is sad. But hey, they did the same for the original Sonic 2 and it worked out fine (ripple effects was taken out, still Chemical Plants runs slow).

So don't worry. I have the power to remove the pixel shader in 5 seconds, and upload a that version. But it is not up to me alone to make that decision. I just press buttons, other people are in charge :(

EDIT: I have uploaded a 70 MB Xvid video of all stuff I want people to see (http://www.zshare.ne...935918c319a9eb/). It's kinda fun because I can record videos of the game without any slowdowns. My specs:

Core 2 Quad 2.4GHz
2 GB RAM
ATi Radeon X1950 512 MB

Pretty basic computer today, I bought it for around $400-$500.

And when this project is finished, trust me, computer will be faster, even for the home thanks to Windows Vista forcing pixel shaders into most graphics card.
This post has been edited by LOst: 04 October 2008 - 06:18 AM

#25 User is offline Tadashi 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:30 AM

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Hmm. I'm curious, what the pixel shaders are used for?
This post has been edited by Tadashi: 04 October 2008 - 06:31 AM

#26 User is offline Ell678 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:55 AM

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Something you may want to think about is duel / quad support. I had my Logitech G15 showing the performance monitor on the LCD screen, and the second I booted up the demo, one core immediatly filled up and the other did nothing. Just a suggestion, it may help with performance for those with more powerful CPU's than GPU's, it might not.

#27 User is offline Elratauru 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:56 AM

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View PostTadashi, on Oct 4 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

Hmm. I'm curious, what the pixel shaders are used for?


Special effects, shading... As the name says, shadings at each pixel... For example, HDR is a pixel shader effect... Bloom needs for example Pixel Shader 2.0 If I remember... or for example, that sun haze when looking at it...

More here: http://en.wikipedia....i/Pixel_shaders

Mmm Yup, Lost, the Ps is killing my old 6200... and I got a 3.0 enabled card...Well, I Love the 2nd tech demo, the emerald hill tiles now are awesome... and by the way, good job.

#28 User is offline Tadashi 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 07:06 AM

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View PostElratauru, on Oct 4 2008, 08:56 PM, said:

View PostTadashi, on Oct 4 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

Hmm. I'm curious, what the pixel shaders are used for?


Special effects, shading... As the name says, shadings at each pixel... For example, HDR is a pixel shader effect... Bloom needs for example Pixel Shader 2.0 If I remember... or for example, that sun haze when looking at it...

More here: http://en.wikipedia....i/Pixel_shaders

Um, I was asking what are they used for in this demo. It looks the same as the first one, but lags a lot. Is there something I'm missing? And what will they be used for? Ripple effects? Something else?

#29 User is offline evilhamwizard 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 08:59 AM

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Actually, the second release worked fine for me with Wine (Ubuntu 8.04.1 AMD64):

Posted Image

Great work. :(

fyi: I'm using verson 1.1.5.
This post has been edited by evilhamwizard: 04 October 2008 - 09:03 AM

#30 User is offline Tweaker 

Posted 04 October 2008 - 09:22 AM

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Would it be possible to edit the launch program (where you can change controls and stuff) to have a list of graphical effects that the user can turn off to try and improve speed? I think that would be the best way to handle making the game work for as many people as possible.

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