What are the core fundamentals of a Modern Sonic game?

Not true, I'm questioning how many of the millions of PARENTS who've bought the systems and games for their KIDS were doing it for the gameplay. It should be considered.

 

Parents buy things for their kids either to make them happy or to shut them up, often not considering or even KNOWING the content. The basic idea of the ESRB and similar systems is to quickly tell parents what is and isn't appropriate for their kids without needing detailed knowledge of the content. So no, I don't think that should be considered.

 

Do you want me to watch this? :v:

I love modern Sonic, he's such an amazing character. SA1 is one my favorite games of all time, so is SA2. Both look really nice and the controls are surprisingly intuitive and easy. Really appreciated the improvements in Heroes, especially the voice acting and CGI, even though the setting is quite different. Shadow was able to grab onto ledges and pick up weapons, but personally, I would have liked if he had played like in Heroes. Despite its wonkiness, the storybook series was a nice change of pace. Gotta say. The battle against Erazor Djinn at the end of Sonic and the Secret Rings looked pretty impressive by Wii's standards. Unleashed and Colours were nowhere near as sloppy as their predecessors and I remember thinking they're taking a big step forward. Since then Sonic's bumpy career culminated in the release of Sonic Generations. That's how I see it.

It starts the moment you see the SEGA logo.

 

So are you actually here to hold a legitimate discussion about the thread topic or are you here solely to take the piss and derail the thread.

 

It's really hard to answer that question, that's why you asked in first place, didn't you? It's too evident that boosting is the only thing those games have in common, but the game design around it is quite different on each game, and then there's lost world in between, so, is the boost a real reference? I only liked that playstyle in Generations, which, as you've seen before, doesn't get a very objective opinion from me, but the fact that I liked it in one game and hated it in the rest says a lot about how inconsistent the experience is.


I don't think there's any deliberate core fundamentals in a modern Sonic game besides some sort of engine reusing when they don't want to risk anything, but, if I go this way, I'll end up throwing the same speech as always, "people at Sonic Team don't know what they're doing", and all that stuff. I don't want to do that, I just want to point out that it's too easy to fall on individual expectations when games themselves give us so few clues, if any.

 

Yeah, I'm in full agreement with this. The Boost gameplay, even in its optimal form (hell, especially in its optimal form), is no substitute for what Sonic Team had been working on between 1996 and 2006. It's a completely different beast. In the mid 90's, Sonic Team's aim was to create a 3D platformer, not a racing game. They've shown that they know how to make a potentially bitchin' racing game, to succeed where Sonic R failed, but that still doesn't solve the problems they had with their attempts at a 3D platformer, it just pushes them to the wayside.

In my own perfect world, we'd have three distinct styles of game going forward: tried and true Mania styled 2D platformers (which, as Plus shows, can still innovate and push the envelope in their own ways, without going so far beyond the pale that we end up with something like Sonic Rush), Boost-but-better racing games (as roughly outlined in my previous post), and 3D platformers. And if we're to talk about a 3D Sonic platformer, I think it's ideal, if not crucial, to translate the nuances of the 2D gameplay, as much as is possible, into the third dimension.

I can forgive Sonic Adventure for not fully implementing the fundamentals from Sonic 1; technical limitations being the biggest reason. Given what came before them, you can see that they were actively in the process of implementing them, so huge props there, there's nothing wrong with the third time not being the charm. Over the years, though, they seemingly stopped caring about completing that task. Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow, 06, and (much later) Lost World completely lost sight of what made the 2D Sonic games fun, and, thus, what would make a fan of the 2D Sonic gameplay want to see Sonic in 3D in the first place. Were these mechanical gameplay fundamentals anything shy of inherent to the appeal of the gameplay, then it wouldn't matter how the game played; if the novelty is simply that we're playing as Sonic in a 3D space, then you could just make a hack or a mod of some random other 3D platformer to have Sonic, and it would scratch that itch just as well. It's because that wouldn't scratch the itch (for me, at least), that I find fan games like Green Hill Paradise, Utopia, and Islands fascinating and important. They're essentially picking up where Adventure 1 left off. They in no way represent a completion of the multi-team, multi-work creative thread that first began with NiGHTS, but they represent the first step forward since 1998, the first step forward in two decades.

I certainly wouldn't suggest "Sega just hire the people who made these fangame tech demo proof of concepts and all of your problems would go away!", but if they wanted to make worthwhile 3D platformers, following in their footsteps is an important starting point. I don't know if the people calling the major shots and doing the major leg work at Sonic Team simply don't want to do something like this, or if that's just not where their talents lie. If it's the latter, then this team would need to, in this ideal scenario, be put in charge of developing the aforementioned Boost-but-better games, because they've shown that they're able to make solid race tracks; they just need to cut the clutter, and tactfully diversify the content. On the other end of things, in order to officially pick up where Adventure 1 left off, they would need to create a new team; perhaps there are people within the company who would indeed actually be useful for this endeavor; perhaps Taxman and co. could, at the very least, play some sort of role, be it advisory or hands-on; and, perhaps, some of the people behind some of these fangames could indeed follow in Taxman's footsteps and use their knowledge and talent to help out.

That all may seem to escape the intended scope of the thread, but it's part of my larger point. The core fundamentals of modern Sonic seem to be making a "Sonic Simulator", which at best would entail making a racing game. Unfortunately, that would entail abandoning pretensions of 3D platforming. Given Mania's existence (and the hope that more similar games will come down the line), I'm okay without a 3D platformer Sonic game; however, from NiGHTS, to Jam, to Adventure, and now to these fan projects, we can see a clear forward progression toward seeing something as mechanically distinct and nuanced as the 2D Sonic games manifest in the third dimension, and it would be a shame to not eventually see that broad creative thread bear official fruit.

 

This is one area in which I'll have to general agree with what Iizuka said in 2012, paraphrasing: "Forward moving 3D Sonic"
(as opposed to the side-scrolling pixel sonic he compared it to.)

Other than the fact that they exist in a 3D space and the player largely propels Sonic forward instead of to the right or left, that's kind of it. Between SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow, and '06, there are so many details and aesthetic choices that differ between the games that they exist almost independently of each other. Even SA1 and 2 as we know, are very different games. They share similar physics and control but the level design and aesthetic (and music and many other things) are hugely different between the two.

The three games that are the most consistent with each other in the Modern franchise are Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. But while the character control is different in these games, the primary style of gameplay and level design is very similar to the much earlier SA2. A lot of fans complain that the character feels like a tank to control in the later iterations of Modern (I agree)...but the control works much better with the level design and style of gameplay. So really, the earlier iterations are just a more primitive version of the same style of gameplay even though the physics are different, since they are equally as linear and constricted (as opposed to being more open as some like to pretend they are) as anything that followed them in the franchise. And even with the physics and control, these are different among every last one of these games including the most recent ones.

Modern has no core fundamentals. It really doesn't. Its fundamentals have been literally, no fundamentals. A dart board to throw ideas at.

….Which is why, even though I have some attachment to portions of the Modern games and there are a lot of fans that are frankly batshit crazy about many other Modern things, I think SEGA and Sonic Team should strongly consider dumping the Modern era in favor of a more solid foundation. But that's a different thread.