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Sonic Realms 0.4.0 - Unity2D Engine

#16 User is offline KOHCTPYKTOP 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 07:56 PM

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View PostGreen Snake, on 07 March 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

it just feels like you half-finished everything and went "fuck it, its good enough, ship this shit to everyone".


To be honest, that's pretty much how I rationalized it. There are a fair amount of bugs, and while I think the core physics is robust, I do concede that the menus, saving, structure, etc. are incomplete for sure. I got impatient with myself after having kept the development under wraps for so long, decided to yolo and, for better or for worse, show it off.

Quote

The mixing of different zone assets and complete lack of respect for common level design principles is really irritating, even for a test zone.


Note to self: Green Mushroom Plant Zone was a bad idea

As for level design, eighttailedfox built it incrementally as I put in more features and it suffers from flaws as a result. So it's my bad. Nevertheless, I'm sure he'd appreciate any specific criticisms.

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Seriously with all of these issues (and really I bet I could find many more if I had the time) this engine at this point feels like a crappy knock-off Sonic game, minus the actual gameplay. Its really not ready to be released yet.

As you may tell, I know my Sonic shit pretty well, even down to the code. If you are bothered by it not being basically 99+% accurate to the original, I can help you fix the issues. But I am not touching Unity with a long stick, so I can really only provide technical information and complaints about things you get wrong.


Again I disagree with the physics being that much off, but I imagine that working with the originals for so long the flaws would stick out like a sore thumb. It'd be amazing if you could help with the physics issues!

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So I pointed out the things I found (which any decent developer would be thankful for, by the way), and set the tone according to my disappointment.


I'm a little salty. But any input is good input.

Overall I'm still glad I released. I've a list full of bugs to fix and things to improve, even if they probably should have been fixed before I posted. Thank you to everyone that's trying it out and giving feedback. I'll see what I can do in a week or two.
This post has been edited by KOHCTPYKTOP: 07 March 2016 - 08:12 PM

#17 User is offline Natsumi 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:13 PM

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View PostKOHCTPYKTOP, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Again I disagree with the physics being that much off, but I imagine that working with the originals for so long the flaws would stick out like a sore thumb. It'd be amazing if you could help with the physics issues!
I've worked with the classic games enough to notice really any difference, and let me tell, I found a lot of them. In fact so many I couldnt really concentrate on the minor issues, as there was so much major ones. Mostly its just case of velocity adjusting, tuning it to match properly the originals, but some were really bad physics issues.
Drop me a pm with any contacting method, and I'll pick the one I prefer.


View PostKOHCTPYKTOP, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

I'm a little salty. But any input is good input.


There is no real reason to be; all I am pointing out is the flaws with the engine and giving my opinion on it. Of course you'd hope its "good enough", but it clearly isn't and the blame is not in us. But its good if you accept the input nonetheless, allows you to move past the mistakes.

#18 User is offline eighttailedfox 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:25 PM

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View PostKOHCTPYKTOP, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Quote

The mixing of different zone assets and complete lack of respect for common level design principles is really irritating, even for a test zone.


Note to self: Green Mushroom Plant Zone was a bad idea

As for level design, eighttailedfox built it incrementally as I put in more features and it suffers from flaws as a result. So it's my bad. Nevertheless, I'm sure he'd appreciate any specific criticisms.

I won't say that the level design is great. I know it has flaws. It's a showcase level. A section on the layering system, a water section, a section with crushing blocks, a gravity section. The tube from chemical plant is in there. The mentioned balloon. Item boxes and shields of all kinds.

I chose mushroom hill, since test levels for other engines almost entirely focus on emerald hill or green hill. Plus it allowed me to do the U shape to show three layers in the same area. A little before the checkpoint.

I'm happy with it as a test level, and as the engine moves forward, the test level will be rebuilt. The layering section goes on a bit too long, and the platforms for the second half of gravity section don't match the gravity direction.

In the end, for a fan engine, the level design will be up to the fan who uses it to create levels. I will improve the test level as we go to show this better, but I do believe this to be a functional test zone.

View PostGreen Snake, on 07 March 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostKOHCTPYKTOP, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

I'm a little salty. But any input is good input.


There is no real reason to be; all I am pointing out is the flaws with the engine and giving my opinion on it. Of course you'd hope its "good enough", but it clearly isn't and the blame is not in us. But its good if you accept the input nonetheless, allows you to move past the mistakes.


He's justified in being a little salty. Your first sentence was declaring the whole thing to be shit. We both value the feedback, but that doesn't mean you have to outright condemn the whole thing.

By all means, I appreciate the time you've put in to test the demo. Just in the future, please don't say people have nothing to be offended about, when you type profanities.

#19 User is offline Natsumi 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:31 PM

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You would like to re-read it, maybe. I didnt call this "shit". In fact right after I say its "good effort"! Could you pay attention to what you read and not jump the gun on what I say in a post?

#20 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:53 PM

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I agree fully with Green Snake. Others here are only revealing they've barely if at all played the classic Sonic games, or are trying to be more positive and supportive than is warranted.
Sonic in this engine plays with so many oddities and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin; from lurching seemingly at random to awkwardly accelerating and decelerating while moving up and down slopes. I haven't put much pressure on it yet and already flaws are coming out of the woodwork, just playing it normally.
Even Sonic's rolling action is broken on flat ground under no special conditions. https://I.gyazo.com/...f31dfccfce6.mp4
This engine needs a great deal of work before it can be considered viable not only for commercial projects but fangames as well. Despite Unity's vastly superior capability to MMF2, this can't replace Sonic Worlds due to this engine's faults. All of that power is no good if the gameplay doesn't work.

#21 User is offline Atendega 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:12 PM

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View PostMr Lange, on 07 March 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

I agree fully with Green Snake. Others here are only revealing they've barely if at all played the classic Sonic games, or are trying to be more positive and supportive than is warranted.
Sonic in this engine plays with so many oddities and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin; from lurching seemingly at random to awkwardly accelerating and decelerating while moving up and down slopes. I haven't put much pressure on it yet and already flaws are coming out of the woodwork, just playing it normally.
Even Sonic's rolling action is broken on flat ground under no special conditions. https://I.gyazo.com/...f31dfccfce6.mp4
This engine needs a great deal of work before it can be considered viable not only for commercial projects but fangames as well. Despite Unity's vastly superior capability to MMF2, this can't replace Sonic Worlds due to this engine's faults. All of that power is no good if the gameplay doesn't work.
It doesn't help your credibility a lot to essentially accuse people of lying. I love the classic Sonic games, and this engine is plenty close. It's not perfect, but it certainly isn't as bad as you suggest.

#22 User is offline KOHCTPYKTOP 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:15 PM

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View PostMr Lange, on 07 March 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

I agree fully with Green Snake. Others here are only revealing they've barely if at all played the classic Sonic games, or are trying to be more positive and supportive than is warranted.
Sonic in this engine plays with so many oddities and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin; from lurching seemingly at random to awkwardly accelerating and decelerating while moving up and down slopes. I haven't put much pressure on it yet and already flaws are coming out of the woodwork, just playing it normally.
Even Sonic's rolling action is broken on flat ground under no special conditions. https://I.gyazo.com/...f31dfccfce6.mp4
This engine needs a great deal of work before it can be considered viable not only for commercial projects but fangames as well. Despite Unity's vastly superior capability to MMF2, this can't replace Sonic Worlds due to this engine's faults. All of that power is no good if the gameplay doesn't work.


Oh god... the physics aren't THAT bad. I think something even worse broke when I fixed the the bug Aerosol brought up. Hold up, let me take a look and upload new builds.

#23 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:17 PM

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View PostAtendega, on 07 March 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

I love the classic Sonic games, and this engine is plenty close. It's not perfect, but it certainly isn't as bad as you suggest.

It is not plenty close. It is as bad as we suggest. If you love the classic Sonic games then go play them more and pay better attention to how they function. Either you're played little, payed little attention, or you can't perceive differences or faults in gameplay.

#24 User is offline Xeal 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:19 PM

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As Natsumi and Mr Lange have said, and I will reiterate. This needs work. Sonic doesn't respond well when going up slopes (which makes the entire gravity switching segment a pain), he doesn't slow down when rolling on a flat plane, and roughly 99% of the time when I launch this, the button that is used for down is constantly in the state of as if it was pressed, so I can't do anything but roll around. Spin dashing also seems to be released by pressing the up button(???). Don't know if that's related to the aforementioned down button problems.

This is no where near the point that this can be called a replacement for Sonic Worlds, nor as something that should be used for fan games or for making something that's meant for retail release.

Also:
Posted Image

#25 User is offline KOHCTPYKTOP 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:37 PM

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Hoo boy, I can feel the flames from here. I expected bad impressions, but not this bad. I've uploaded another demo that patches up the frictionless movement introduced with the prior demo, and I'll make sure to test my last-minute builds more often.
This post has been edited by KOHCTPYKTOP: 07 March 2016 - 09:49 PM

#26 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:54 PM

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These aren't flames. These are criticisms.
You fixed the broken roll but everything else is virtually the same.

#27 User is offline KOHCTPYKTOP 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:08 PM

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Quote

These aren't flames. These are criticisms.
You fixed the broken roll but everything else is virtually the same.

I know, I know, just being metaphorical. Reading the criticisms I did feel flustered at first but they're all valid.
That's about all I can fix with just a few lines of code, then.

Just want to wrap up here before I go back to the drawing board -

So it looks like the engine is polarizing. It's clear that my grasp on Sonic physics isn't close to what I'd thought, and I should have looked for more feedback and testing before releasing outright. Lesson learned! The interface needs work, too. A lot of work.

I won't lose faith in it, however, and in due time I'll return with something better. For now, what's out there is out there - there's no backsies, so maybe someone will see potential in it. This is the first project I've really put out there, so it was a good learning experience and a great deal of catharsis personally.

Thanks again for the feedback, and see you soon!
This post has been edited by KOHCTPYKTOP: 07 March 2016 - 11:09 PM

#28 User is offline TruePowerofTeamwork 

Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:20 PM

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I agree with Lange and Green Snake, there are still lots of oddities.
I've done a lot of research on how the classics work, and there's definitely still a lot of issues.
Sonic kinda skips up and down slopes sometimes.
I wasn't able to get a good gif of it, but it feels incredibly awkward.
Sonic also tries to go up 45 degree angles at slow speeds as shown here:
https://I.gyazo.com/...b90cc59f292.mp4
It seems you may have an input lock timer in place as slowly walking up quarter pipes works closer than a lot of engines, but it should lock when the angle is greater or equal to 45.
And if it is in place it seems too short, it can't remember if it was 30 or 32 frames.

Aside than physics there's other problems too.
When I started the game and created a file the dialog asking to confirm, always had NO in yellow as if it was selected, so if I moved to YES, NO would stay yellow. This eventually went away.
The other problem is graphics related, which I think is actually a problem with Unity 2D.
The pixels aren't perfect at all, they also have strange oddities.
Pixels are always warping while moving, and when moving slowly objects will appear 1 pixel away from each other for a frame or two.
https://I.gyazo.com/...f7eb5fd4f91.mp4
(Look at the background near the end of the clip, this happens with level tiles too)

I really don't like Worlds or MMF2, but I would never recommend this over Sonic Worlds.
MMF2 and Worlds are an absolute pain to use compared to Unity, but Worlds is far more accurate and doesn't have all these strange oddities.

Edit:
Oh I forgot to ask, are you reading the Physics Guide?
That would definitely help a lot with accuracy.
This post has been edited by TruePowerofTeamwork: 07 March 2016 - 11:26 PM

#29 User is offline Aerosol 

Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:11 AM

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I should remember that being a dick can be justified as long as I'm being a helpful dick :v:

Out of curiosity, are you using raycasts?

#30 User is offline .Luke 

Posted 08 March 2016 - 02:09 AM

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Any reason Sonic keeps looking up when no input is given? Movement along slopes gets pretty sticky at times too.

And I kinda have to echo the others here. While it's nice you have a bunch of features packed into this thing, little of that matters without solid collisions and movement to build on top of them; the physics should come first. (Also, watch out for Feature Panic. It's the scourge of quite a few game projects.) Was the excitement too much to contain? This is something I see happen a lot with people working on their first big project.

There aren't any 2D Sonic engines for Unity, so everyone's expectations were high, no matter what the version number is. Years ago, I had a Game Maker Sonic engine with lots of "features" to boast too, (Didn't finish it, though.) but I never put it in the wild. Why? It wasn't ready, and I was aware some Retro members were working on something much better. I didn't put my little Shantae engine anywhere until it was remotely decent either.

That said, it's a good effort and can only get better with time, as long as you're willing to take in some feedback. I wasn't expecting this to be on Sonic World's level yet in terms of polish anyway.

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