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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC) - WARNING, SPOILERS Developed by Christian Whitehead, Headcannon and PagodaWest

#9811 User is offline Blue Blood 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:29 PM

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View PostOverlord, on 16 September 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Huh. Didn't even know you could do that, I've never seen a need to.

Put it this way - Mania was heavily influenced by and built off the 16 and 8 bit Sonics - none of THOSE had no timer.

True, but I still don't see why that's an excuse to stick to an archaic design choice. S1 and S2 had much less sprawling designs. There were multiple routes involved, but not exploration. The timer already became a problem in select areas of S3K. And CD was... Well CD was CD. I can actually defend the time limit in that one because time travelling and finding the generators in each level whilst also making it to the goal in time served a purpose. It was a challenge in itself. You could ignore it (or fail it) and the game would be different as a result. That's not the case in Mania though. You're not looking for any one thing, and you don't need to explore every level.
This post has been edited by Blue Blood: 16 September 2017 - 12:35 PM

#9812 User is offline Deef 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:40 PM

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View PostFrostav, on 16 September 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Exploring in a sonic game doesn't even make sense


#9813 User is offline tokumaru 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:42 PM

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View PostFrostav, on 16 September 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Honestly I'm baffled by the amount of people complaining about the timer, these levels take like six minutes at best and are often shorter than that.

If you just want to get to the end, sure, but I enjoy going back to see what else the levels have to offer before clearing them.

Quote

And I don't get the "I want to EXPLORE though" thing either, Exploring in a sonic game doesn't even make sense when the point is to keep moving forward (note that I didn't say "go fast" before you start bashing out "SONIC'S NOT ABOUT SPEED") which everything from the physics to the level design facilitates.

Ever since Sonic 1 I liked to explore and see how all the paths connected. I also liked to look for all rings and monitors. It's a perfectly valid way to play, but the 10 minute limit started to get in the way when levels grew the way they did after Sonic 2.

Quote

If I miss something I just go back and try again next time through the level.

Yeah, this is fun too, but it's not the same. And if you want to collect everything you have to visit the whole level in one sitting.

#9814 User is offline Deef 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:54 PM

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For most people here with maybe 15+ years experience, 10 minutes is fine.

For near-new players it's a definite restriction; I've seen this many times in Sonic 3&K and Mania. Remember that finding lives and gathering rings is a fundamental part of some of the game's compulsion. New players playing in the raw/conventional way we've all forgotten easily don't even notice 6 minutes have passed already.

Not saying the time limit is definitely a bad thing, but it is a thing, and it came from a place where it wasn't a thing (Sonic 1 & 2 ).
This post has been edited by Deef: 16 September 2017 - 12:59 PM

#9815 User is offline Lapper 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:07 PM

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Time monitors!

#9816 User is offline DigitalDuck 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

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The time limit is part of the challenge and story; Eggman's ruining the world as we speak, gotta put an end to his plans. Wait around and do nothing, and it'll be too late.

I see no problem with a post-game Explore mode, that allows you to spend as much time exploring the levels as you want (I enjoy exploring the levels myself) but it seems to me that it's not really the main focus of the game (especially not when the game explicitly stops you from backtracking at many points) so I don't see a positive for turning it off in the main game.

#9817 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:18 PM

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I don't think the problem is that there's a time limit. I think the problem is that the time limit is too short for the size and complexity of the stages. Fifteen minutes would be a lot better.

#9818 User is offline Kono Mike da! 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:23 PM

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View PostCovarr, on 16 September 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

I don't think the problem is that there's a time limit. I think the problem is that the time limit is too short for the size and complexity of the stages. Fifteen minutes would be a lot better.

Hell, why stop at fifteen? Have levels with different timers that go anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes.
This post has been edited by Kono Mike da!: 16 September 2017 - 01:24 PM

#9819 User is offline Stimil Rc. 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:53 PM

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View PostDigitalDuck, on 16 September 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

The time limit is part of the challenge and story; Eggman's ruining the world as we speak, gotta put an end to his plans. Wait around and do nothing, and it'll be too late.

How would you make this rationalization work for Sonic CD?

#9820 User is offline Deef 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:54 PM

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It's a tough call to say the game's focus should be shifted more towards the timer like that. That's pretty much the only reason I don't jump at Lapper's suggestion of time monitors; either they matter enough and the game has a different feel altogether, or they don't matter enough. Likewise with tuning level timers to the levels.

I almost wanted to suggest (as I dream about even longer levels) to leave the 10 minutes in place but insert capsules at suitable intervals, without bosses, and reset the timer with each. So the conceptual impetus is still there, but the lack of actual pressure is also still there, while allowing levels to still grow, while also allowing new players to relax a bit more.

Then I realised that's borderline acts without mini bosses.
This post has been edited by Deef: 16 September 2017 - 01:55 PM

#9821 User is offline Blue Blood 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:59 PM

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View PostDigitalDuck, on 16 September 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

The time limit is part of the challenge and story; Eggman's ruining the world as we speak, gotta put an end to his plans. Wait around and do nothing, and it'll be too late.

I see no problem with a post-game Explore mode, that allows you to spend as much time exploring the levels as you want (I enjoy exploring the levels myself) but it seems to me that it's not really the main focus of the game (especially not when the game explicitly stops you from backtracking at many points) so I don't see a positive for turning it off in the main game.

The time limit really isn't part off the story. Nothing is ever happening to push you forwards in the narrative.

How is it not a positive to remove the timer? These are not linear levels and they're full of secrets. If you're hunting for Blue Spheres, Special Stages or even just rings and monitors, you can quite easily spend a lot of time on that. Even with several points of no return in each level, you can still back track and explore a lot in different places. Nothing in the game makes it important to reach the goal in 10 minutes. Moreover, nothing really conveys that the limit is even there. There's a time attack mode for speed running. Why not give the player free reign in story mode? The timer can still be used for bonus points and would benefit from having different times in every level - having the same limit for GHZ1 and TMZ2 is blatantly not something that's actually been thought about. Just don't kill the player for not managing it. It's worse when a time over amounts simply to a death and time reset, but the same won't happen if you die by other means. A particularly egregious example was posted previously concerning the SPZ1 boss - of you challenge the boss without enough time left, you'll be stuck in an unavoidable loop of death until you get a game over unless you last long enough to time over.

How is anyone defending that design?

I would propose this:
Beat the level: silver medal
Beat the level in the time limit: gold medal

That's literally exactly what Advance 3 did and it was a good system. I can't say that a forced, hard time limit actually adds anything to the experience. It just detracts. I'm one of those people who had never enjoyed speed running Sonic games.
This post has been edited by Blue Blood: 16 September 2017 - 02:11 PM

#9822 User is offline ApocalypticSalad 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 02:07 PM

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View PostBlue Blood, on 16 September 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

The timer can still be used for bonus points and would benefit from having different times in every level - having the same limit for GHZ1 and TMZ2 is blatantly not something that's actually been thought about.

On that note, I've been meaning to ask why the 50K point bonus has been changed back to 0:30, when in "Mania Mode" that's literally impossible in every level.

#9823 User is offline Blue Blood 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 02:13 PM

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View PostApocalypticSalad, on 16 September 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostBlue Blood, on 16 September 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

The timer can still be used for bonus points and would benefit from having different times in every level - having the same limit for GHZ1 and TMZ2 is blatantly not something that's actually been thought about.

On that note, I've been meaning to ask why the 50K point bonus has been changed back to 0:30, when in "Mania Mode" that's literally impossible in every level.

Does it work if you get a time over? Hit the last checkpoint, time over, beat the boss in under 30 seconds. Just curious. Cause that would be a silly exploit.

#9824 User is offline Sean Evans 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 02:16 PM

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View PostApocalypticSalad, on 16 September 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostBlue Blood, on 16 September 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

The timer can still be used for bonus points and would benefit from having different times in every level - having the same limit for GHZ1 and TMZ2 is blatantly not something that's actually been thought about.

On that note, I've been meaning to ask why the 50K point bonus has been changed back to 0:30, when in "Mania Mode" that's literally impossible in every level.


Because thats how it was in the classics...so? You do realize you get an even bigger bonus for beating the level at the literal last second too right? THATs why the timer's there.

#9825 User is offline Felik 

Posted 16 September 2017 - 02:22 PM

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If it's like that in classics then it's perfect, no need to even consider improvements

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