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Rings. Coins. Lums. Which aspects work, which don't, and why?

Discussion in 'Fangaming Discussion' started by Deef, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Some Dude's Hand

    Some Dude's Hand

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    Empire City
    Getting my ideas off the paper and into the computer.
    Well, I knew that. 32 might be a good number from a technical standpoint (easier to handle in hex), but I chose 30 because imo that sounds like a better fit from the player's perspective. You know what? I'll stick with 32, because most people already know that 32 is the limit for lost rings. Whatever makes people happy.

    + - (On an unrelated note: Heh, one trial post wasted on a small change to an idea that may never be used.) :v:  
     
  2. Star and Moon

    Star and Moon

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    That was very interesting. (I'm sorry but I haven't read all the comments so I may say what someone else has already said.) One +++ to collecting rings that you forgot to mention is that if you have more then one, and you get hurt, it is easy to recollect them if you in a place that is barren of rings, or if you are trying to walk across lava. But in some games they don't have that feature, which makes ring collecting kind of pointless. But it still would be better if collecting rings had more meaning. One thing I really liked in Sonic Boom (The ROM hack, not the old fan game) you could preform several moves, each which cost a different amount of rings to preform, that makes rings have more meaning. I think they should have that feature in the game, or maybe they should just put the chao gardens back in, or both.
     
  3. Deef

    Deef

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    @Star and Moon
    I actually see that as pretty much a negative, Star and Moon. I do acknowledge that taking the focus of a Sonic game away from the tension of life management is a deliberate and positive thing, but I also believe that simply exploiting the infinite drop & catch mechanic to pass dangerous areas really messes up how much the designer can control the player. That's why in the OP I wrote "They make the game really easy as the player is permitted to screw up, over and over again." as a positive and a negative.

    Turning rings into fuel or currency for special moves does place meaning back into rings, but also heavily changes the focus of the game. So the value of this idea depends more on how much the game designer wants to do that, than it does on its own merits.




    @Some Dude's Hand
    Hmm. So if you scratch the wrapping immediately everyone is going to ask "WELL HOW HIGH DOES IT GO!O???1" I find that hilarious heh, just the thought of getting hit by a simple little Coconuts and dropping seventeen thousand, three hundred and forty-two rings. Oh the rage lol.

    Yes I realise I just considered this in terms of the rings the player can drop, not in terms of the untouchable and suspended ring counter you said. But mmm, even if it's not 17,000 that you're carrying, I still like the idea of running around with over 500 rings not just as a rare exception. This makes the point pretty clear too; 500 rings in Sonic 3 means absolutely nothing. If there's something that makes 572 rings feel 100 rings more meaningful than 472 rings, then I would say something is going right. I could legitimately accept a classic Sonic game with such a counter as a better thing than the way Sonic 3 works. I very much like the idea of being afraid to drop 572 rings. Oh the tension. On the downside however, oh, the tension.

    Anyway, sc-sc-scratching the wr-wr-wrapping is a nicer way to do it, I agree. It would just need a bit more thought. What is the limit, what happens at that limit, etc. The increase in ring requirements for extra lives isn't a bad idea either. A little evil-mmo-player-manipulation-ish, but still.

    The non-wrapping thought also leads to the new concern of farming worries; something I'm really not fond of one bit. To avoid the feeling of farming, the reward has to be something the player will not feel disappointed to not receive. Yep; the reward has to be definite, but not actually craved. That's what irritates me about coins - the harder you look at them the more they do everything right. I honestly don't think the original design of Mario's coins went through a huge range of options for what they do; I think they just kind of pulled a Homer and coins are so right because they are so simple. (However I do think it's likely that coins are applied to the levels better than rings are as well, but I haven't really looked hard at this.)

    Tangenting a little there, so I'm just saying that they're good and interesting suggestions.


    Oh, as for the number 32, well what I was really saying is that it makes no difference what number you assign to this "ring energy." Think about it. The amount of rings it "holds" doesn't mean or do anything in your idea, unless I'm reading it wrong but I think I have it right. There's no reason at all for the HUD to even be any different to how it is already in Sonic 3, since it works like rings and you just get hit and drop them all still. That's why I questioned the "10" in terms of survival, because the only sense I could make of it was if you were suggesting Sonic only visibly drops 10 rings. To that I say, no, it would be better staying as 32 dropped rings, while the "ring energy" itself doesn't even have a place in the HUD; it's just the number of rings you have collected and not yet dropped, like always. It's the "ring counter" that would be different; some other counter hidden up the top tallying up hundreds and hundreds of ever-collected rings. (Oh, there is one reason for only going up to 10/30 - not having to bother with rewards for rings carried. But I think that is just less elegant.)

    In considering your suggestions I have made them sounds more convoluted than they really are. It simply comes down to: "Add another counter than isn't affected when rings are dropped, and is suspended always, and thus works just like coins."

    Clearer terms I think are "rings collected" and "rings carried." Rewards would have to be considered for both in the interests of elegancy. But yes, this is the basic solution to the problem posed. Rings collected take the best of Mario's coins. Rings carried take the best of Sonic's rings.


    So putting all your ideas together and ending my unleashed ramble:
    · Rings collected is a counter that suspends across levels and doesn't wrap at 100, but at something higher.
    · Use increasing ring requirements to temper life haemorrhaging.
    · Rings carried works as normal.


    Adding my interest onto that:
    · Rings carried are also suspended, allowing for monster painful drops (that are still making me laugh).

    Lol, enter bullet time, slow fade into black and white, slow the music into a drawl.... you just got financially destroyed. Honestly though, I could really play with this idea as much as it sounds like I'm destroying something I'm trying to take seriously.



    · · ·

    I plan on rewriting the OP with a much fuller analysis, while I still haven't settled on any main solution that I like. To be honest I'm more interested in that analysis than a solution at the moment; it's distracting me. And I keep thinking of new points I have to make a note of, I wanted to have posted it already.
     
  4. Some Dude's Hand

    Some Dude's Hand

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    Empire City
    Getting my ideas off the paper and into the computer.
    Yes, you've grasped what I was trying to say. I should've used the "rings collected" and "rings carried" terms, as that seems to make my idea clear. As for the limit on the "rings carried" counter, why not make it adjustable in the game menu? (by increments of 20?) Like choosing your difficulty, but with a twist. A low limit means less tension and more of a focus on survival, while a high limit is vice versa. And just for farts and giggles, I'll incorporate the idea of massive ring drops: By beating the game with a certain amount of "rings collected," you can choose to make your "rings carried" counter top off at higher numbers, with an absolute limit of... 1,000 rings!:eng101:

    ...'k then. I'd like to take a shot at this "uncraved reward," but I'll let the others speak out on that. I feel I've been + - lol hedge   hogging this thread, so I'd like to see what else these creative minds can offer.
     
  5. Deef

    Deef

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    But what does the limit to "rings carried" actually do? Only affect the amount you can drop?
    You suggested increments of 20. What possible difference is there between carrying 40, and carrying 60, and carrying 80?

    Oh, and regarding the uncraved reward and the reference to coins, I was referring to the free lives. That's what I was writing all about, yet I forgot to actually say what I was referring to. Free lives are a reward that always exists, but that the player won't feel disappointed when passing up chances to earn that reward. Thus, the player won't feel a kind of "farmy" or "negative motivation" (ie, to avoid disappointment) to collect them. All about controlling expectations.

    Apart from lives, which are indeed getting more and more meaningless, I haven't thought up a great uncraved reward. BUT simply having the reward is definitely more important than the value of the reward itself, so it shouldn't be too hard.

    Thanks for the continued interest heh. Today going up the skilift I thought to myself "I am taking things in a videogame about a blue animal wayyyyyyy too seriously." Srs bsns.
     
  6. Some Dude's Hand

    Some Dude's Hand

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    Empire City
    Getting my ideas off the paper and into the computer.
    Well, by letting the player choose how many rings they can carry, they can choose the balance of tension and survival that fits them. A new player might choose a small limit because it's easier to keep and reclaim all their rings, but an experienced player might choose that option too because it makes it harder to get through tougher levels without dying. Conversely, a new player might choose a higher limit as it lets them screw up a lot and still have rings, while an experienced player might choose a higher limit as it makes it harder to keep and reclaim all their rings. There are no truly "hard" or truly "easy" settings, just settings that seem hard or easy to you.