[Aesculapius Piranha]

dsrb, on 11 April 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Aesculapius Piranha, on 11 April 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

yesterday's announcement of a playable Metal Sonic

blogs.sega.com/2012/04/10/sonic-the-hedgehog-4-episode-ii-with-metal-lock-on-revealed/ said:

Check out the newest trailer for Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode II and Episode Metal below!

Showing so little platforming, and so many automatic sections that might as well be scripted, is not making me pumped. Dat f*&^%$g booster noise.

I'm sure they are just teasing him being cool. Either way Metal is getting some single player playable love in the main games, and this is long overdue. If you aren't pumped, you probably haven't been hoping for this since Sonic CD was relatively new like me. If he has awesome gameplay on top of it, that will be a cherry on top.

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

Because SEGA has a track record of disappoint people are sceptical, and rightfully so. Personally I have felt that the physics look fine in Episode 2 for a while now. With the inclusion of Metal Sonic, I can't even complain that they let Tails in anymore, so thanks for shutting me up on that, SEGA. ^_^

This post has been edited by Aesculapius Piranha: 11 April 2012 - 03:44 PM

[Ell678]

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

But you can see it hasn't changed. It's Episode 1 all over again bar uncurling. And considering the 'changes' they implemented in 2, you can bet Tails as a lead will only be in Episode 3.

[XD375]

Sonic Adventure had some pretty bad physics and collision detection. Sonic Adventure 2 made them even worse. Heroes and Shadow made the former two games look like gold in this respect, and '06 similarily made Heroes actually look good.

Yes, it's ridiculous that a company wouldn't improve a game's sequel after lots of complaining, but with SEGA, it has become expected. I'm not denying they've made some improvements with this episode, but it's not like people have no right to be worried.

[TimmiT]

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

Good physics don't mean shit if the level design doesn't make good use of them, and when it comes to that Episode 2 doesn't look like it will be much different from the first episode.

[KeebeeNacho]

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

Slightly improved physics don't automatically make the game better.

The only way I'm spending money on this game is if it's on sale, or if the cheaper iPhone version looks like it's worth a couple bucks.

This post has been edited by KeebeeNacho: 11 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

[Chaos Rush]

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

Because, starting in 2003, Dimps has consistently proven multiple times that they are incapable of making a decent Sonic game.

(this is my opinion so don't attack me just because you liked one of the DS games or something)


EDIT: Also, I just realized something. Remember when people were complaining about Sonic being the only playable character in Episode I? And then somebody from SEGA (was it Iizuka?) responded with, "fans will be very pleased with the cast of Episode II"? Yeah, well they lied. You still can only play as Sonic. I know this doesn't have anything to do with Dimps making sucky Sonic games during 2003-2012, but it's just another reason to add to my list of why Sonic the Hedgehog 4 as a whole is a fucking joke.

This post has been edited by Chaos Rush: 11 April 2012 - 04:24 PM

[Aesculapius Piranha]

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

EDIT: Also, I just realized something. Remember when people were complaining about Sonic being the only playable character in Episode I? And then somebody from SEGA (was it Iizuka?) responded with, "fans will be very pleased with the cast of Episode II"? Yeah, well they lied. You still can only play as Sonic. I know this doesn't have anything to do with Dimps making sucky Sonic games during 2003-2012, but it's just another reason to add to my list of why Sonic the Hedgehog 4 as a whole is a fucking joke.

So far the known playable cast seems to be Sonic & Tails (And their new moves make it a point that it is not just one or the other.) and Metal Sonic as additional content. For all we know there could be more. If you aren't pleased with the cast, that is valid, but to say you can still only play as Sonic is just not true for the game play reasons alone.

Personally I was pleased with the lack of the extended cast. My complains lay mostly the bland music, mediocre level design, and buggy physics, and to a lesser degree the fact they are still using the Sonic Adventure look. The fact they were concentrating mostly on Sonic was a good thing.

This post has been edited by Aesculapius Piranha: 11 April 2012 - 04:57 PM

[Hero Of Fate]

Caniad Bach, on 10 April 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

How much are Microsoft Points in real money? I'm a PS3 man and I don't understand your fancy fake currency.

1200 MS Points is a 15 dollar game. For serious.

[Chaos Rush]

Aesculapius Piranha, on 11 April 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

EDIT: Also, I just realized something. Remember when people were complaining about Sonic being the only playable character in Episode I? And then somebody from SEGA (was it Iizuka?) responded with, "fans will be very pleased with the cast of Episode II"? Yeah, well they lied. You still can only play as Sonic. I know this doesn't have anything to do with Dimps making sucky Sonic games during 2003-2012, but it's just another reason to add to my list of why Sonic the Hedgehog 4 as a whole is a fucking joke.

So far the known playable cast seems to be Sonic & Tails (And their new moves make it a point that it is not just one or the other.) and Metal Sonic as additional content. For all we know there could be more. If you aren't pleased with the cast, that is valid, but to say you can still only play as Sonic is just not true for the game play reasons alone.

Personally I was pleased with the lack of the extended cast. My complains lay mostly the bland music, mediocre level design, and buggy physics, and to a lesser degree the fact they are still using the Sonic Adventure look. The fact they were concentrating mostly on Sonic was a good thing.

From what I've read, you can't play as Tails unless if you're Player 2 doing co-op. And it's like Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, where the view follows Sonic so it sucks being Player 2 anyways. And you can't play as Tails alone. So really, Sonic is still the only playable character. And the Metal Sonic DLC thingy is Episode I levels.

EDIT: (and for clarification, the amount of playable characters is not my problem with the game, there are plenty of other reasons that I don't have to list. It's the same reasons that many people at Sonic Retro don't like Sonic 4)

This post has been edited by Chaos Rush: 11 April 2012 - 05:16 PM

[TheInvisibleSun]

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Aesculapius Piranha, on 11 April 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

EDIT: Also, I just realized something. Remember when people were complaining about Sonic being the only playable character in Episode I? And then somebody from SEGA (was it Iizuka?) responded with, "fans will be very pleased with the cast of Episode II"? Yeah, well they lied. You still can only play as Sonic. I know this doesn't have anything to do with Dimps making sucky Sonic games during 2003-2012, but it's just another reason to add to my list of why Sonic the Hedgehog 4 as a whole is a fucking joke.

So far the known playable cast seems to be Sonic & Tails (And their new moves make it a point that it is not just one or the other.) and Metal Sonic as additional content. For all we know there could be more. If you aren't pleased with the cast, that is valid, but to say you can still only play as Sonic is just not true for the game play reasons alone.

Personally I was pleased with the lack of the extended cast. My complains lay mostly the bland music, mediocre level design, and buggy physics, and to a lesser degree the fact they are still using the Sonic Adventure look. The fact they were concentrating mostly on Sonic was a good thing.

From what I've read, you can't play as Tails unless if you're Player 2 doing co-op. And it's like Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, where the view follows Sonic so it sucks being Player 2 anyways. And you can't play as Tails alone. So really, Sonic is still the only playable character. And the Metal Sonic DLC thingy is Episode I levels.

Wow, I had no idea you could do combo moves and fly with Tails when playing as Sonic Alone in Sonic 3.

Also, the Metal Sonic DLC is not just E1 levels; it was said by Ken that they are more than just re-skin stages.

Ell678, on 11 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Star and Moon, on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why are some people saying that episode 2 is not going to be good? I think it's ridiculous that SEGA would make episode 2 have a bad physics engine like episode 1, because of what fans have said, and also, it would make more money if it was better, so I think episode two is going to be definitely worth buying.

But you can see it hasn't changed. It's Episode 1 all over again bar uncurling. And considering the 'changes' they implemented in 2, you can bet Tails as a lead will only be in Episode 3.

How does one look at the gameplay and see this? They're not perfect, but it's quite clear that there are more physics improvements in the game other than uncurling. In fact, this has been known and demonstrated throughout this thread for a while now.

[SlapStick]

I enjoyed Episode 1... a lot (about as much as Sonic 2). However, I can see why people don't like it. Episode 2, on the other hand, I don't see why.

They improved the graphics by a ton and just about fixed the physics. They added Tails (yeah he's not playable in single player, so what?), online co-op, and extra Metal Sonic DLC (for FREE!). They gave us original levels that weren't blatant rehashes (the names could've used some work though) and an actual story.

I don't see what's so bad about the level design either. There are multiple paths (some that take advantage of the co-op moves) and, to be honest, there's a lot to do on those paths. I could care less about the bubbles chains and speedboosters. I actually like the speedboosters (I'm not entirely sure why though, I just do). I'd much rather speed through a loop because of a speedbooster than get stopped on a loop and have to go back a little bit and spindash through it.

I really, honestly don't see the problem here. So far this game is looking amazing. I don't really have any problems with it (besides some of the zone names).

[Chaos Rush]

TheInvisibleSun, on 11 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow, I had no idea you could do combo moves and fly with Tails when playing as Sonic Alone in Sonic 3.

I could care less about the 69 combo stuff, and judging by what you're saying, you can make Tails fly when playing as Sonic+Tails in S4EII? Forgive me for not knowing, as I haven't been keeping up with this game at all, as I have no plans on getting it. But my point is, you still play as Sonic, not Tails. You don't get to play as Tails alone.

My main problem is that they're calling these cheap titles Sonic 4. It sucks, because now this means there can never be a true Sonic 4. I guess I would be more fine with it if it wasn't called Sonic 4.

Quote

I really, honestly don't see the problem here. So far this game is looking amazing. I don't really have any problems with it (besides some of the zone names).

Well what's bothering me is that they're still carrying on with the episodic DL crap, it's still being developed by Dimps (the cheap company that makes the low-budget titles), and many features from Sonic 3 & Knuckles that were taken out in Episode I still aren't in Episode II. And I'm also really skeptical of the physics because of how badly Episode I controlled in comparison to the classic titles, and -I'll just stop now because I don't want to start saying the same crap people have said over and over again about Episode I.

But there is one thing that is 100% confirmed about Episode 2 that I can legitimately complain about: too little content for it's price. Game is too short.

[TheInvisibleSun]

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 11 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow, I had no idea you could do combo moves and fly with Tails when playing as Sonic Alone in Sonic 3.

I could care less about the 69 combo stuff, and judging by what you're saying, you can make Tails fly when playing as Sonic+Tails in S4EII? Forgive me for not knowing, as I haven't been keeping up with this game at all, as I have no plans on getting it. But my point is, you still play as Sonic, not Tails. You don't get to play as Tails alone.

My main problem is that they're calling these cheap titles Sonic 4. It sucks, because now this means there can never be a true Sonic 4. I guess I would be more fine with it if it wasn't called Sonic 4.

The point of this gameplay style is that the player is really playing as Sonic and Tails simultaneously, and not just Sonic with another character following him. This game expands on Sonic 3&K by making a true 'Sonic&Tails' gameplay, where you essentially play as both characters without actually controlling one of them. The Basic Actions (running, jumping, spin-dashing etc.) don't need to be controlled by two characters; one only needs one model for that. For special actions like the Homing Attack and Flying, you'll need to use whichever relevant character necessary for the task. For the Double Spin-Dash you need to play as both at the same time. This true 'Sonic&Tails' game play actually involves both characters, which is why neither Sonic Alone nor Tails Alone would work in the game. Instead of the stages accommodating for both Tails Alone and Sonic Alone, they only cater to Sonic and Tails mode.

Knowing this, I'd also be willing to bet that if Knuckles is playable in E: 3, then Episode 2 would feature a Knuckles in Episode 2 mode, where in cases like the snow burrowing, Knuckles would just walk/roll into it on his own. He would also Glide and Climb in the Flying areas (making them significantly more difficult). But this is getting into the 'baseless speculation' territory.

[Aerobian-Angel]

RE: Not the Usual Bickering on the Topic of Sonic 4

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Making it all caps like that is not an argument. [...] you're not going to change my mind with capital letters and exclamation points.

That awkward moment when they don't see satirical commentary via the usage of "all-caps rage" hyperbole.

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Ah. Rephrasing someone's arguments to make them sound stupid makes you correct, does it? No, I don't think so.

Happy medium? Nope. They've just made both sides mad. I don't think that's doing anyone much good, except for those who want this bizarre "middle."

I'm not talking directly about you. Just rephrasing what seems to be the loudest voice/point of the multiple sides of the angry letters sent to SEGA, a generalization if you will. The point is however, that the fanbase —for both Modern and Classic-- is anything but organized in what it wants or accepts. And that's just it: nobody wants to compromise anymore. Nobody feels like meeting halfway on what we want out of a Sonic game. Sure, you have those who agree like a match made in heaven, but for every one of those, you'll get TWENTY who'll drop a simple "Fuck you, that's stupid" and proceed to be at each others' throats. This is very evident when you just look at the bickering forums.

When whether or not their game feels fun turns into politics, compromise is basically the choice game designers have. They can't just ditch one audience in favor of the other, that'll just result into MORE factions in the fanbase, and we all know how that turned out the first time.

Moving on.

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Sylvania Castle has foreground/background platforms (something that the Classics NEVER did, mind you),

Mushroom Hill never existed.

You can't possibly be serious. If anything, please do not be referring to the MUSHROOMS. They are seriously just there. With no real purpose beyond trampolining to —more often than not-- nothing. The closest thing that qualifies as a background/foreground gimmick would have to be the Pull-Up machines. Even so, it'd be a REALLY long stretch to even mention those as such seeing as it's just a ladder that happens to be behind things just as a visual trick to imply it going through the scenery, not behind it.

In case I happen to be missing anything else that comes close to what's being mentioned, please do clarify as I am just not seeing it.

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

So it has about four gimmicks. Still not enough, and as the other person said, they are inferior gimmicks.

Remember, it's only four so far —that is to say, as of Act 1. If we're to count on Episode 2 being like Episode 1 in any respect, we can count on newer mechanics being implemented per Act. For example, the platforms that need to be rotated and the spinning bg/fg platforms from the trailer. Still not enough? We'll just have to wait and see what else lies in the levels, now won't we?

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

I liked Sonic and Knuckles' half more than Sonic 3's half for this reason. However, even when the gimmicks are copy-pasted across the acts, they do not abuse boosters and springs and bubble chains in every level, making that more tolerable to me than this "improvement" in which the gimmicks are halved, and they vary those fourish ones while keeping bubbles chains and boosters and springs in all acts.

I'll give you that one.

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

As far as I am knowledgeable of, the games are either all in the same boat or Sonic 4 constantly renews its gimmicks to keep the game feel fresh throughout the levels. Personally, I like having new challenges per Act when given the choice, as I expect it to have more memorable experiences. Whether or not it actually will, is to be determined when the entire game itself is available to play.

Perhaps you had a point when you listed off all the gimmicks, but you didn't address the springs, the bubbles chains, and the other overused automation in this segment of your post. Not to mention that the quality of the remaining gimmicks is, in a lot of cases, inferior.

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

And while these may be burdened with the recurring theme of Springs, Boosters, and Bubbles as well, they're not NEARLY as plentiful as in Episode 1 (I really just think that the designers wanted it to ALWAYS feel like a speedrun or something), as the game footage shows (contrary to the trailers). What I want to know is why did Dimps insist on so many Boosters when Sonic traversed the first slope in White Park (which was quite steep) just fine? It's like they don't trust their own coding, so they frequently slap on Boosters and springs...

Even you agree with me, in the end. The springs, the boosters, and the bubble chains ruin what the other gimmicks set up. If the boosters and springs and bubble chains (and the more nonsensical bottomless pits) left the game and emulated the much less frequent spring/booster design of the games before, maybe this game would be worth purchasing for me. As it stands, it isn't, because it plays like those Sonic Advance games I disliked. [...] So, like me, you would rather not be plagued by boosters and springs. It's okay. You can make a post without telling someone else they're wrong. You could just simply disagree. Furthermore, you like there being more gimmicks, ones which renew. This "Dimps Happy Medium" doesn't seem to work for you either.

Put 2 and 2 together. My whole argument is based on compromising for what's laid out. Given the whole situation concerning who really is the audience is for this game, the designers are seriously stuck between two sides. This is where the compromising comes in. From the designers (as aforementioned) and myself. While I am listing off things that my "perfect Sonic experience" could do with/without (I.e.: less booster-spam), I'm also noting that I'm not going to use that as grounds for a 10-page essay on "Why Sonic 4 Still Sucks". In fact, I'm not even going to let that stop me from playing the game to have a good time. I'm accepting what I'm being given and while I do wish for more things —whether it be the addition or removal of some elements, I know that someone at the other end of the spectrum would have a complaint. Believe it or not. And while that might not bother you in the slightest, its not the same story for me. So I'll just deal with what I don't like. It's not perfect, but it's what I'll take for a chance at satisfaction. That's the Happy Medium: give and take. Compromise.

And who said I can't agree with you on some things and disagree on others? These are just my points, and I only "call people out" if I do not fully understand where they are coming from —to which I inquire for more reasoning, or if I feel I can legitimately prove them as "wrong". I can't change your opinion, but I can defend mine when I feel it can and should be.

And now to address one last thing:

Metal Man88, on 10 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Aerobian-Angel, on 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

But enough of my drivel on 2 stages, I wonder how the other Acts and levels will pan out like...

In conclusion: You could have simply said "I... don't really know what to think" rather than going on about opposite opinions and rambling incoherently about some "happy middle" which... you then indicate is not happy. O... kay... Really... I don't mind if you like Sonic 4. Or if you think it will somehow be better than it looks right now. I just find the whole thing disappointing. Wasted potential. Lazy design.

Hey man, just because I am addressing other arguments and acknowledging them as valid points, that does not make me indecisive. Again: agree on some, disagree on others.

Although that one statement could effectively sum-up my response, let this be an aid: My quick dodge to the "But enough of my drivel on 2 stages, I wonder how the other Acts and levels will pan out like..." line is use of a rhetorical device. Because I spent so much time defending the topic, it should indeed come off as odd that I would come off with such a handwave of a remark. However, its stark contrast in degree of of how much "passion" was put into my statements —in combination with how out-of-nowhere it was-- should give off the signal that I'm not here to get riled up over anything. I'm not here on the forums for that. However, do not take that as a means of "but I don't know what I'm talking about" as truth, just as... insurance. Something to prevent "escalation". Infer, kind sir.

This post has been edited by Aerobian-Angel: 12 April 2012 - 12:24 AM

[David The Lurker]

TheInvisibleSun, on 11 April 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Chaos Rush, on 11 April 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 11 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow, I had no idea you could do combo moves and fly with Tails when playing as Sonic Alone in Sonic 3.

I could care less about the 69 combo stuff, and judging by what you're saying, you can make Tails fly when playing as Sonic+Tails in S4EII? Forgive me for not knowing, as I haven't been keeping up with this game at all, as I have no plans on getting it. But my point is, you still play as Sonic, not Tails. You don't get to play as Tails alone.

My main problem is that they're calling these cheap titles Sonic 4. It sucks, because now this means there can never be a true Sonic 4. I guess I would be more fine with it if it wasn't called Sonic 4.

The point of this gameplay style is that the player is really playing as Sonic and Tails simultaneously, and not just Sonic with another character following him. This game expands on Sonic 3&K by making a true 'Sonic&Tails' gameplay, where you essentially play as both characters without actually controlling one of them. The Basic Actions (running, jumping, spin-dashing etc.) don't need to be controlled by two characters; one only needs one model for that. For special actions like the Homing Attack and Flying, you'll need to use whichever relevant character necessary for the task. For the Double Spin-Dash you need to play as both at the same time. This true 'Sonic&Tails' game play actually involves both characters, which is why neither Sonic Alone nor Tails Alone would work in the game. Instead of the stages accommodating for both Tails Alone and Sonic Alone, they only cater to Sonic and Tails mode.

Knowing this, I'd also be willing to bet that if Knuckles is playable in E: 3, then Episode 2 would feature a Knuckles in Episode 2 mode, where in cases like the snow burrowing, Knuckles would just walk/roll into it on his own. He would also Glide and Climb in the Flying areas (making them significantly more difficult). But this is getting into the 'baseless speculation' territory.

Here is my problem with the "you are playing as both" scenario. While it's cool that you no longer have to pull out a second controller to make Tails fly you about...that is all you really are doing with the "you are playing as both" dynamic. The 69 super spin does not scream to me as a necessary play mechanic. It doesn't look like an interesting one. All it's doing is that, instead of pushing a button to do a spin dash, you are pushing another button to do another spin dash. It isn't accomplishing anything else. The only time you're going to be inconvenienced is when you're waiting for Tails to show up if you've already lost him in the level. If the point was to make it feel like you're controlling both, then they should have come up with something that makes me feel like I need both characters there.

There are also the annoying "oh you need to fly here" segments that we've already seen. This is something that could have easily been fixed if you want to play as Sonic alone or as Tails alone - with Sonic alone, give him a spring. Or better yet, do what was done in Sonic & Knuckles - create specific paths for specific characters. Saying "oh it would take a lot to change things up now" is an annoying excuse, because that shouldn't have been the game plan in the first place. Once again, it's leaning towards the "there is one right way to play this game" mentality. There may be alternate paths, but it's going to feel more like the "go this way to hit these automated springs, or go this way to hit these automatic speed boosters" than "oh you go this way and you're going to see some really cool stuff, but if you go this other way you're going to see some different really cool stuff." DIMPS alternate pathways don't really feel like anything different from each other.