[Palas]

Quote

When I was talking about Sonic essentially having unlimited health, I was referring to using everything that's available to you (Like invincibility frame spamming!) Its like playing FF6 and someone arguing that it's hard if you don't spam the endless amount of ways you can exploit it's programming or design issues (Like Max Magic Block % or Wind God Gau, or Vanish/Doom, or Economizer + Ultima, etc.). Sure, it might be challenging if you do that, but I don't think that's a valid way of measuring difficulty because you're not accounting for everything that's at the player's disposal. Or a more valid comparison (As both are platformers) would be Mega Man 2 w/Metal Blades. With them, the game is a complete joke but others insist that it's still hard as long as you don't use them. That's the thing, they're available to me, so I'm going to use it unless it's a challenge run of some kind and even then, I don't think a challenge run is comparable to the main game's difficulty because in one you're intentionally limiting yourself and the other you are playing normally, using everything to your advantage. Maybe it's my inner optimizer, but if you give me an inch I will take a fucking mile and have no qualms doing so.

This. If I want some self-imposed challenge I will try to lick my on elbow.

Also, I don't like it how games are "friendly" to you. They teach you everything, they tell you everything - for God's sake. Some frustration won't hurt, specially if we're talking about developing your skills in the game.

[steveswede]

Hukos, on 23 May 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

When I was talking about Sonic essentially having unlimited health, I was referring to using everything that's available to you (Like invincibility frame spamming!) Its like playing FF6 and someone arguing that it's hard if you don't spam the endless amount of ways you can exploit it's programming or design issues (Like Max Magic Block % or Wind God Gau, or Vanish/Doom, or Economizer + Ultima, etc.). Sure, it might be challenging if you do that, but I don't think that's a valid way of measuring difficulty because you're not accounting for everything that's at the player's disposal. Or a more valid comparison (As both are platformers) would be Mega Man 2 w/Metal Blades. With them, the game is a complete joke but others insist that it's still hard as long as you don't use them. That's the thing, they're available to me, so I'm going to use it unless it's a challenge run of some kind and even then, I don't think a challenge run is comparable to the main game's difficulty because in one you're intentionally limiting yourself and the other you are playing normally, using everything to your advantage. Maybe it's my inner optimizer, but if you give me an inch I will take a fucking mile and have no qualms doing so.

Well it could be an idea for you to play some of the hacks here that put restrictions in so you can't abuse the exploits. If you're any good at hacking, then it could be an idea for you to disable the invincibility fames when hit or add a health bar because what you're asking for is a core change in the system to change the difficulty which alot of people would be pissed about. Being able to spam an exploit doesn't mean it's broken or a joke, something as obvious as invincibility fames were put in deliberately to the point where I assume it was to train bad players to get better so they can get the special stages and complete the game correctly. I know one thing, it's not exactly fun to spam all the way through a level it's extremely tedious (Metropolis for example) and makes me feel I'm just getting through the game for the sake of it.

[Hukos]

steveswede, on 25 May 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Hukos, on 23 May 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

When I was talking about Sonic essentially having unlimited health, I was referring to using everything that's available to you (Like invincibility frame spamming!) Its like playing FF6 and someone arguing that it's hard if you don't spam the endless amount of ways you can exploit it's programming or design issues (Like Max Magic Block % or Wind God Gau, or Vanish/Doom, or Economizer + Ultima, etc.). Sure, it might be challenging if you do that, but I don't think that's a valid way of measuring difficulty because you're not accounting for everything that's at the player's disposal. Or a more valid comparison (As both are platformers) would be Mega Man 2 w/Metal Blades. With them, the game is a complete joke but others insist that it's still hard as long as you don't use them. That's the thing, they're available to me, so I'm going to use it unless it's a challenge run of some kind and even then, I don't think a challenge run is comparable to the main game's difficulty because in one you're intentionally limiting yourself and the other you are playing normally, using everything to your advantage. Maybe it's my inner optimizer, but if you give me an inch I will take a fucking mile and have no qualms doing so.

Well it could be an idea for you to play some of the hacks here that put restrictions in so you can't abuse the exploits. If you're any good at hacking, then it could be an idea for you to disable the invincibility fames when hit or add a health bar because what you're asking for is a core change in the system to change the difficulty which alot of people would be pissed about. Being able to spam an exploit doesn't mean it's broken or a joke, something as obvious as invincibility fames were put in deliberately to the point where I assume it was to train bad players to get better so they can get the special stages and complete the game correctly. I know one thing, it's not exactly fun to spam all the way through a level it's extremely tedious (Metropolis for example) and makes me feel I'm just getting through the game for the sake of it.

I have absolutely no knowledge of hacking and learning it would require someone to hand-hold me the entire way (Which I doubt anyone is honestly willing to do). I've taken a look at the Community Hacking Guides and that shit goes about a million miles over my head, unfortunately. The most I could honestly do is come up with an idea and yell at a hacker to put it into the game. Though I'm not currently aware of any "hard-mode" hacks, recommend a few and I might try them out.

This topic wasn't meant to call for a serious change, but just to get some ideas on how it would be possible to implement difficulty into a Sonic game without being cheap. I understand that the invincibility frame mechanic is there to supposedly "train" inexperienced players, but it doesn't change the fact that it exists regardless of your level of skill and is there to freely spam. The closest thing to a really difficult Sonic level that isn't cheap I can think of is Scrap Brain Zone from Sonic 1. Even then, it isn't that hard compared to something like Castlevania 3. Now, while Castlevania and Sonic are two different series with different aims and different audiences, difficulty in both games seems to come from the same angle and that is the player not paying attention to their surroundings.

In Scrap Brain Zone in Sonic 1, you can get screwed over a lot by simply not paying attention to the various death traps or whatever tricks SBZ pulls off. If the player is careful, then they aren't an issue. In Castlevania, it's largely the same thing. The player needs to play smart and conservative to progress without dying a lot. CV is not a series that you can get away with being reckless in (Not for very long at least). I can beat Castlevania 1 on the NES without a single death, but if you watch me play I tend to be pretty damn conservative the whole time and very rarely do I act recklessly (Of course, whenever I play Symphony I'm as stupidly reckless as you can get, but that's beside the point). Even moreso when it comes to CV3 or Rondo of Blood or Bloodlines because those games require patience and intelligent decision-making.

Now I recognize Sonic games aren't about that kind of playstyle but I find it interesting the hardest of Sonic levels tend to follow that same kind of design (Scrap Brain, Labyrinth, Scrambled Egg, etc.). Make of that what you will.

This post has been edited by Hukos: 25 May 2012 - 04:02 PM

[steveswede]

Castlevania has a health bar system that makes you conservative about your gameplay. If you were able to spam invincibility frames all the way through, wouldn't this make the difficulty the same category as Sonic? To me if Sonic had a life bar system or say you are only allowed to take four hits per act, people would sing a different tune about it's difficulty.


Regarding how to implement difficulty into a Sonic game without being cheap, you should try out S3&K Master Edition for some hardcore platform action. S3&K Master Edition is fucking brutal but genuinely brutal it's just a shame the guy who did it didn't finish it and only did the first three zones and Hidden palace. You seem like someone who likes this sort of difficulty. Try it out and see how far you get without using save states.

[Sik]

steveswede, on 25 May 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Try it out and see how far you get without using save states.

Hydrocity, got stuck in one area where I didn't know where the fuck I was meant to go x_x;

[Palas]

It's easy to implement difficulty in a Sonic game. All you have to do is to induce despair.

You see, obstacles only harm you in Sonic if you do something wrong. Generally speaking, of course. They are, most of the times, not directly aimed at you - it's your fault if you get hit. This specific type of difficulty is normally more subtle, even if it isn't really easier - just makes the gameplay far less based in trial and error. It integrates calmness to skill, and this is VERY interesting because it's Sonic we're talking about here. You have to build momentum, but the fear that of making the wrong move is doubled because of all the harmful elements that will only hit you if you screw up.

The challenge is supposed to be diffuse. Notice that whenever there is a chain of threats, such as missiles or shots etc. can ALL be avoided with a single, simple move. The more half-assed is such move, the more upcoming threats you have to avoid. Difficulty is built by your own mistakes to the point of the unbearable and irreversible.

Now, this is where I see the real difficulty in Sonic. The rest is skill tolls, challenge, but these don't bear intrinsic... how can I say it... desire to make you lose your lives and cry before the screen. Yeah. This.

So if you can puzzle the player's mind as to make him lose his temper and make the wrong move, you have your difficulty that still isn't cheap. It was the player's fault after all. And this much you can do by testing one's reflexes to the point one breaks down the stream.

Objects that come from nowhere are perfect. Well, take that section in Angel Island Act 2 in which a carrier drops bombs. If you keep running steadily, nothing will happen. But if you could add some obstacles that suggested that the player should jump (when he actually shouldn't), like missiles with horizontal trajectory that fly JUST over Sonic's head, the player would perhaps, in fact, jump. Then, a second missile would punish him/her for this and then the bombs would do the rest of the job.

This post has been edited by Palas: 25 May 2012 - 09:57 PM

[Lobotomy]

Many, many alternate routes, combined with more than one difficulty setting. Simple as that. Oh, and Game Overs should push you way farther back than they do. Maybe back a full cutscene sequence even.

[XCubed]

Palas, on 25 May 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Objects that come from nowhere are perfect. Well, take that section in Angel Island Act 2 in which a carrier drops bombs. If you keep running steadily, nothing will happen. But if you could add some obstacles that suggested that the player should jump (when he actually shouldn't), like missiles with horizontal trajectory that fly JUST over Sonic's head, the player would perhaps, in fact, jump. Then, a second missile would punish him/her for this and then the bombs would do the rest of the job.

I would love to see this implemented. We have the technology, we have the power. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to have something that sits in front of Sonic shooting missiles Sky Fortress Act 1 style (with slightly smaller missiles).

I always found that area RIDICULOUSLY easy. But I guess it's understandable, being the first level and all. I just wish the Flying Battery (still the best name between Wing Fortress, Egg Carrier, Sky Fortress...etc.) made more appearances during the levels of the game. I guess they didn't want to overdo it. I wonder if the Flying Battery after Ice Cap would have looked like the Angel Island version or Mushroom Hill version. I wish there was a similar AIZ sequence with it in Mushroom Hill, instead of it being a cutscene.

[serpx]

Off the top of my head, ways to make a Sonic game more challenging:

• Ring Count in level
  
• Time limit
  
• Availability of Power-ups
  
• Characteristics of Enemies (I.e. upgraded weaponry, faster movement)
  
• Placement of items
  
• Characteristics of Obstacles (I.e. speed of a trap designed to smush you as you run)
  
• New Enemies/Obstacles
  
• Amount of Air Bubbles available underwater
  
• etc.

I think a good level designer would utilize all of this to make a level more challenging for a player. I like the idea of reducing things that keep a player alive (rings, powerups), rather than placing obstacles in every spot on the map. Though, to make things even more challenging, I feel playing with the other variables would be needed. That's just a brief list -- there's a lot of room for more.

If it's unfun to play, and is just cheap, that's just the fault of the designers.

This post has been edited by serpx: 26 May 2012 - 11:08 AM

[Valvatorez]

Am I the only person who wants more difficulty on the bosses?

I may have been spoiled by the DS games, where I actually remember the bosses and all the tricks they pull, rather than the classics where, outside the first and finals, they don't act too distinctive from each other. I happen to be of the opinion that if you haven't seen all of the boss's moves before you killed them (the first time), they're too easy.

I do like the idea of the difficulty being from jacking with someone's patience—a boss launching multiple weapons could be easy to dodge, except when one hits you and sends you flying into the other shots.

[RuRi]

Valvatorez, on 26 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Am I the only person who wants more difficulty on the bosses?

I may have been spoiled by the DS games, where I actually remember the bosses and all the tricks they pull, rather than the classics where, outside the first and finals, they don't act too distinctive from each other. I happen to be of the opinion that if you haven't seen all of the boss's moves before you killed them (the first time), they're too easy.

I do like the idea of the difficulty being from jacking with someone's patience—a boss launching multiple weapons could be easy to dodge, except when one hits you and sends you flying into the other shots.

I always thought that in the classics, most of the bosses are Eggman going "haha I'll stick a random thing on my flying egg pod to stop you Sonic!", which is sorta why they're similar. And besides, a bit of familiarity is helpful, espcially to newer players.

For the DS games I always found that I died a lot on the bosses, and not because they were hard, moreso they'd throw a brand new attack when you've got their health down by a lot that can instakill or atleast completely throw me off, since I didn't expect it at all. Atleast with the classics, you gotta figure out how to beat the boss, then next time try to beat the boss quicker/with more rings. Challenges that are set by the player, not the designer, giving freedom to choose how you'd like to do it; You can lose your rings to smash the boss quick, or try and learn the attack patterns, dodge his attacks, and beat him with no damage.

While yes, having difficulty is good, having a selection on how the difficulty is going to be for you is even better, it allows bad player to still enjoy what the game has to offer but dumbed down, which in turn gets them to practice to try for harder difficulties.

[Kharen]

I actually preferred the Genesis-era bosses more than the DS ones. The newer games have you wait through the pattern of attacks until Eggman does one specific move that provides an opening for you to hit him. Afterwards, you're stuck waiting for the next occurrence of the same attack in order to hit him again. For an example, look at the first boss of Sonic Rush. You only get to hit Eggman after his headbutt attack, and until he does that particular attack, you don't get a chance to hit him.

The classic games allowed you to hit him any time he was within reach. You still had to dodge his attacks and learn the patterns, but once you had them learned and you were skilled enough to dodge them, you could beat him in a matter of seconds. Because each boss was a series of modifications to the Eggmobile, it provided more of a sense of Eggman thinking "Oh shit, this isn't working. This is all I've got, so I guess I'm stuck with it." and not simply waiting for him to repeat an attack that he would have to be absolutely insane to think of using again. I mean, the Sonic Rush example again, if he simply stopped using the headbutt attack, realizing that he gets hit every time he does it, he'd never lose a fight. At some point, eventually, Sonic would fail to dodge the other attack and he'd win the fight.

On an unrelated note, the boss battles in the first Sonic game seemed to feel more like Eggman was using whatever happened to be at hand when Sonic showed up. Think about it. Green Hill Zone had him using the wrecking ball that he was busy using for demolition when Sonic showed up. He didn't have a better weapon, and had never seen Sonic before and didn't know to expect him to show up, and fought with what was already at hand. Marble Zone was a machine he was using to burn away the foliage and plant life to get to the ruins, either for construction or excavation. Spring Yard Zone was a machine for moving blocks around and construction. Eggman wasn't really doing much in Labyrinth Zone, possibly using the time to repair the Eggmobile in a location he figured Sonic wouldn't show up in, and he didn't have anything he could conceivably use as a weapon close at hand, so he had to run away. Star Light Zone was probably just being used for putting the launchers together. Finally Scrap Brain Zone was a trap he managed to cobble together at the last moment, possibly explaining how it was so close to the core of the factory. He simply didn't have time to build it somewhere safer, Sonic was approaching far too quickly. After Sonic escaped and continued fighting, Eggman was forced to use the pistons powering his own factory in a last-ditch attempt to get rid of Sonic.

If you think about it this way, every boss battle in Sonic has a natural flow to it and explains why the bosses acted the way they did. It also helps explain the boss battles in later Sonic games. Now that Eggman knows about Sonic, he started building actual weapons for his Eggmobile specifically to stop him or at least slow him down. (Honestly, what practical purpose would the Aquatic Ruin boss have. He just didn't think of Sonic using the arrows to climb up, and was back in the "Oh shit, this isn't working. This is all I've got, so I guess I'm stuck with it." You could say that he could try something different like attacking directly with that hammer, but that would be even worse suicide. Sonic could just as easily attack him directly and it would be a repeat of the quick defeat at Emerald Hill. That one at least has the excuse of it being his first ever time fighting Sonic at equal terms - high speed offensive battle) It's still more natural than the "wait for a specific pattern and hit him at a pre-determined occurrence."

[Jayextee]

Kharen, on 27 May 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

The newer games have you wait through the pattern of attacks until Eggman does one specific move that provides an opening for you to hit him. Afterwards, you're stuck waiting for the next occurrence of the same attack in order to hit him again.

Where difficulty is inversely proportional to the length of the window of time in which the boss can be damaged. Fuck that, gimme some patterns to penetrate.

Perfect boss is, in my eyes, Metropolis Zone's - especially as Knuckles with his lower jump (so that spamming ring-loss invincibility to hit him when he's high is not an option). Granted, the boss' pattern does have that 'window' where he's completely vulnerable; during which his 'bubbles' settle and you can knock him atop the bonce. But you can hit him at all other times -- and there's nothing more satisfying than waiting under Robotnik (and slightly to the side) and cracking him on the underside with a well-timed jump in harmony with the way those bubbles move, remaining unscathed. The average player can let Robotnik's pattern play out for safe hits, the better player will risk the timing to get faster hits earlier on in the pattern. Perfect.

[Strife]

serpx, on 26 May 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, ways to make a Sonic game more challenging:

• Ring Count in level
  
• Time limit
  
• Availability of Power-ups
  
• Characteristics of Enemies (I.e. upgraded weaponry, faster movement)
  
• Placement of items
  
• Characteristics of Obstacles (I.e. speed of a trap designed to smush you as you run)
  
• New Enemies/Obstacles
  
• Amount of Air Bubbles available underwater
  
• etc.

I think a good level designer would utilize all of this to make a level more challenging for a player. I like the idea of reducing things that keep a player alive (rings, powerups), rather than placing obstacles in every spot on the map. Though, to make things even more challenging, I feel playing with the other variables would be needed. That's just a brief list -- there's a lot of room for more.

If it's unfun to play, and is just cheap, that's just the fault of the designers.

Quite true. It doesn't matter how interesting or creative your gimmicks are; If you don't place them correctly in your stage, then it's going to come across and cheap and convulted. It's always a good idea to understand exactly how your engine works and the various ways that players can interact with your badniks and gimmicks, because then you'll be able to piece together all sorts of interesting situations.

For example's sake, I'll refer to a section of level that I recently built for Relic Maze Act 2 of Freedom Planet:



Notice the tank-like enemy at the bottom. It moves back and forth on that platform while spitting fire like a flamethrower every now and then. Also notice the crystal item box just to the right of it; that's the game's equivalent to Sonic's speed shoes. Now, in the engine I'm using, enemies can destroy item boxes like the player. With this particular setup, if the player doesn't reach the speedup box in time, the enemy will destroy it with its flames and it'll get the powerup instead, making it move and attack twice as fast. So, the player can choose to run past the enemy and get the speedup themselves, or they can spend time grabbing the card item to the left of the ladder, but at the expense of having to deal with a slightly more dangerous enemy. This is the kind of stuff that I wouldn't mind seeing more of in modern Sonic gameplay.


I think that another way difficulty should be handled in Sonic games is by having the level's geometry guide the player rather than some on-screen textbox or annoying sidekick. Human beings can communicate in other ways besides the written and spoken word, afterall. I'll use another FP example since I'm too lazy to pull up level maps for official Sonic games. xD;



This piece of level originally didn't have those hanging bars: What I wanted players to do in order to clear the spikes was to jump on the left spring, then pull their character to the left so that they'd "cling" to the sloped corner and run along the ceiling to the other side. However, I realized that this would actually be kindof an unfair move, since I realize that many players wouldn't understand that particular aspect of the physics engine. So to make it more fair, I offered a more obvious alternate solution: Jump on the left spring, then pull right and use the hanging bars to jump across the spike pit. It actually works out pretty nicely because the hanging bars method is a bit slower than the cling-to-ceiling method, so for players who know how to pull it off, it's a good way to shave off a few milliseconds of their time.

If Sonic games had multiple-choice solutions to tackling certain obstacles like this, then the level would also feel less linear even though it technically still is. It's like a really miniaturized version of the multiple-paths concept.

This post has been edited by Strife: 27 May 2012 - 06:26 AM

[Jayextee]

Strife, it's that kinda thinking that makes me glad you're making games. Seriously. <3

EDIT

Strife, on 27 May 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

A way to make it apparent to the player how the running-on-ceiling-curves will work is to lay a trail of collectibles to show the path, but your 'two methods' approach is one I favour anyway, so it's all good. Just looked at the Relic Maze video for FP and noticed that you do the collectible-trail thing anyway, so it's all good. Dang (and I know I've said this) but I can't wait for Freedom Planet.

This post has been edited by Jayextee: 27 May 2012 - 07:22 AM