[MastaSys]

Knucklez, on 18 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Even if nothing is promised or ruled out, then shifting FBZ in-between CNZ and ICZ shouldn't be made as a permanent feature of the official release builds of S3C, but instead as a patch option. IDGAF what Sonic Team may have intended before breaking the game in two, but the order they put the stages in is the order they decided on in the end.

The original Sonic 3 (part one) level select screen shows that FBZ was in-between CNZ and ICZ, yes, but no one would have ever known that if it wasn't for cheat codes and whatnot to let you access it in the first place. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped the bandwagons from saying that FBZ should follow the original Sonic 3 level select order just because it's there. Based on what? You don't really know why it's still there. It may have been an honest mistake on Sonic Team's part for leaving it there to begin with. Yet, people base all this shit on their own assumptions with no legitimate proof to back up their claims. So whoever wants to sit there and support the idea of making this a certain or permanent feature is just supporting a scrapped idea that never happened, which isn't really Sonic 3-ifying the game now is it?

For the record, this isn't directed at one specific person, but rather a specific group of people. Thanks.

Let's play a game, do you know how to play "One of These"?
It's simple, of a group of similar objects some of them don't belong there, you need to find those.

Here's the US manual of Sonic 3, two of these don't belong here, can you guess where they are from?
http://info.sonicret...anual_22_23.jpg
http://info.sonicret...anual_24_25.jpg

The icon used in Sonic 3 Complete is a leftover from Sonic 3 alone, as other leftovers from the Zone.

Yes you might be right, but the other side isn't as wrong as you try to imply.
From what I see here plus the Stage Select AND the music location, Flying Battery was meant to be included with Sonic 3 Alone, there are some evidence on that.

If Tiddles considers it in the scope of being part of Sonic 3 in it's completed form, it should be included as a default.

[dsrb]

MastaSys, on 18 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

If Tiddles considers it in the scope of being part of Sonic 3 in it's completed form, it should be included as a default.

See, you're not being much better here.

Really, now! Just when I question the very existence of the forced-level-shufflin’ goblins, one appears.

Leave Tiddles to do whatever he wants to do. Which probably isn't reordering the levels by default.

[MastaSys]

dsrb, on 18 March 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Really, now! Just when I question the very existence of the forced-level-shufflin’ goblins, one appears.

Leave Tiddles to do whatever he wants to do. Which probably isn't reordering the levels by default.

Take it easy White Knight... XD
I was just comenting it, look I always made some sugestions, some of them Tiddles agreed and implemented them some of them he simply ignored them and I never tried to force it, and if I did no one would hear me anyway.

[Knucklez]

dsrb, on 18 March 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Knucklez, on 18 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Even if nothing is promised or ruled out, then shifting FBZ in-between CNZ and ICZ shouldn't be made as a permanent feature of the official release builds of S3C, but instead as a patch option.

Who said it would be made such?

Quote

So whoever wants to sit there and support the idea of making this a certain or permanent feature is just supporting a scrapped idea that never happened, which isn't really Sonic 3-ifying the game now is it?

Who wants to do this?

Quote

For the record, this isn't directed at one specific person, but rather a specific group of people. Thanks.

Who?

You could have avoided that entire rant by not conjuring up an imaginary group of compulsory-reorder zealots, but whatever!

- People have mentioned that it should be made such in past discussions on it but I was really just giving an opinion here.

- Who wants to do it? Well many people have and still mention it on here.

- And who's this "imaginary group"? Well if you read correctly, people who support this idea, which again are those from past and present discussions on this.

MastaSys, on 18 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Here's the US manual of Sonic 3, two of these don't belong here, can you guess where they are from?
http://info.sonicret...anual_22_23.jpg
http://info.sonicret...anual_24_25.jpg

The icon used in Sonic 3 Complete is a leftover from Sonic 3 alone, as other leftovers from the Zone.

Yes you might be right, but the other side isn't as wrong as you try to imply.
From what I see here plus the Stage Select AND the music location, Flying Battery was meant to be included with Sonic 3 Alone, there are some evidence on that.

Ahhh, thanks for the US manual scans, I see what you're saying. But come on now, my rant was really just my point of view on it.

Here's a gist of it.. the reason FBZ should be a patch option is because even after the game was split in two, FBZ still ended up in S&K after MHZ and not in Sonic 3 before ICZ. So that might suggest that Sonic Team scrapped their previous idea of having FBZ in the order seen on the Sonic 3 level select, leaving me to assume that the level select remaining as is was just an oversight. Even Sonic Team makes mistakes.. otherwise we wouldn't be here trying to fix their game.

EDIT: Wow. I just realized one thing though, FBZ may have been meant to be the 5th stage, but the reason it was moved to 8th was because of the game being split in two. Sonic 3, apart from S&K, needed a legitimate final boss and the three LBZ bosses would finish the game off well enough, so LBZ was reordered as the last stage of Sonic 3 to make up for a missing final boss. But I guess originally pre-split, FBZ was supposed to be the 5th stage, with LBZ as the 7th stage for a climatic-type sequence during mid-game since Sonic has 14 Stages overall. Ahhh, maybe I let all this slip my mind... but it would still be nice to have it as an option.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 18 March 2012 - 06:15 PM

[Glisp]

scratch that. Nevermind. I misread the article. But in all seriousness, the transitions to and from FBZ fit well between those levels. You have the cannon from CNZ sending you onto the ship. Then, when you leave, the door you knocked off would serve as the snowboard in Ice Cap. Also, there's the absence of Knuckles only routes when all other stages have them, indicating Knuckles was supposed to skip FBZ completely. The teleporter would take him to ICZ from CNZ. There's also the fact that Robotnik is the boss when in all other levels and the other sub-boss, EggRobo is instead. There's also the fact that boss difficulty is the same for Knuckles when generally, Knuckles' bosses are slightly more difficult in all other levels.

This post has been edited by Glisp: 18 March 2012 - 06:23 PM

[Tiddles]

Some day, over the rainbow, once it's actually done... I haven't decided for sure which way round default/patch will be for FBZ order, though I do lean towards leaving release order as default and making an earlier FBZ optional. Hopefully it's something that'll be in the internal options rather than the customiser, too.

The evidence behind the supposed CNZ-FBZ-ICZ order is significant. Unlike the previous games, the internal level order in S3K is exactly the same as the order the levels are played, with the exception of boss acts and HPZ (which are way off at the end, presumably being conceived post-Sonic 3) and FBZ (which internally is set between CNZ and ICZ). On top of that, FBZ is the only zone that has leftovers in original Sonic 3: its title card art, boss and badnik programming are in there, a rudimentary object layout containing only the bosses in almost the right positions, and of course its save screen icon. In fact, the save file format in Sonic 3 is still designed for FBZ to sit in its original position; you can hack a save to point at FBZ, which will give it the S3C-style icon and "ZONE 5" text. There's just a bit of patch code to skip over it on a clear game and adjust the visible numbers for ICZ/LBZ. Plus there's the old Naka Jam quote where he tells us you were meant to use the broken FBZ door as the ICZ snowboard.

Of course, that's not how it was in the end. But I can't see that they'd have reinserted it into the Sonic 3 order with S3K even if they wanted to - just leaving it out of standalone S&K would be unacceptable and it'd be a lot of work to maintain both level orders with transitions and all.

One thing that won't be happening is Knuckles skipping FBZ - I still don't believe that was the intention; that one really is just pure conjecture. I don't want to make his game shorter or complicate the save setup even more.

The last FBZ boss is already is harder for Knuckles in base S3K BTW - he fires the flamethrower constantly instead of only when the player is overhead. EggRobo appearing for the previous boss is no dumb luck based on character selection: the sprites he uses are loaded by FBZ-specific code and never used again. (My theory on why the later boss never got an EggRobo head? The boss art was all completed in the original Sonic 3 timeframe (evidence in the ROM) and nobody ever got assigned to look at it again. It uses different art/mappings so you couldn't just blat the existing EggRobo patch over it, as was done automatically for most bosses.)

This post has been edited by Tiddles: 18 March 2012 - 06:37 PM

[Glisp]

Hey Tiddles, what about the knuckles sprites for 2 player I posted on last page.. Are you gonna implement those? (and read my suggestions for things other than FBZ.)

[Knucklez]

Glisp, on 18 March 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

scratch that. Nevermind. I misread the article. But in all seriousness, the transitions to and from FBZ fit well between those levels. You have the cannon from CNZ sending you onto the ship. Then, when you leave, the door you knocked off would serve as the snowboard in Ice Cap. Also, there's the absence of Knuckles only routes when all other stages have them, indicating Knuckles was supposed to skip FBZ completely. The teleporter would take him to ICZ from CNZ. There's also the fact that Robotnik is the boss when in all other levels and the other sub-boss, EggRobo is instead. There's also the fact that boss difficulty is the same for Knuckles when generally, Knuckles' bosses are slightly more difficult in all other levels.

You're absolutely right about everything, except one thing, Knuckles' FBZ end boss is always entirely overlooked in that it spews up fire nonstop. When playing as Sonic/Tails, he only spews up fire if you are right above him in-between the spike rings that keeps him hanging. So basically against Knuckles, Robotnik never stops spewing fire, whether he's slowly shifting left or right, or spinning above and below the platform. However, against Sonic/Tails, no matter how he moves, he will only spew fire if Sonic/Tails are directly above him. This is present in the original S3K and certainly does change the difficulty.. somewhat.

This post has been edited by Knucklez: 18 March 2012 - 10:30 PM

[Neo]

Tiddles, on 18 March 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

One thing that won't be happening is Knuckles skipping FBZ

So you're going to drop it in the water, then?

Also, the constant flamethrower isn't the only thing different about the FBZ2 boss when playing as Knuckles -- he also only swings up twice at a time instead of four times, making it impossible to defeat him in a single cycle.

[King]

I only have one suggestion for a patch if it's acceptable. To disable the Super Sonic music and not speed up the level's music - basically transform without the level's music effected. I think that'd be pretty interesting, IMO.

[DTX]

Machenstein, on 13 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this yet, but would it be possible for the Super/Hyper form theme to be separate from the invincibility theme? I'm thinking more along the lines of this theme in Genesis format.

Ah, so there are fans out there like me who were also interested the S&K Collection music and wanted to see some of it implemented into a Genesis/MD ROM (or at least one other fan anyway.)

Maybe the tempo, arrangement and/or rhythm could be altered so that it sounds more befitting of a super theme. I'm not sure if that's a particularly feasible solution, but I can imagine it working in my head.

This post has been edited by DTX: 19 March 2012 - 01:01 AM

[Aerosol]

Make an SMPS and I'm sure Tiddles will consider it as a patch option. Though personally, I don't much like it. It doesn't fit the musical theme of MD S3&K if you ask me. I'd prefer a remix to the Sonic 2 invincibility theme, or even the chorus to Toot Toot Sonic Warrior.

http://www.youtube.c...-RLleqiHc#t=64s

Infact, I really like that idea. I just noticed Megamix used that but if the shoe fits! Perhaps it can be rearranged a bit slightly, so it can have that short build up that super jingles are supposed to have. I dunno, I'm not a musician.

This post has been edited by AerosolSP: 19 March 2012 - 07:34 AM

[Glisp]

I think porting over the Sonic 2 Invinicibility or Super Sonic Theme would be a lot simpler than making a new SMPS sample. However, it might hurt the feel of the game. It's alright with me as long as we still have options which we should. I'd download a patch with the Super Sonic theme from Sonic 2 used anyway. That theme is kick ass.

Also, directed @ Tiddles:

Glisp, on 18 March 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Okay have a couple of bugs/debugging issues that could use fixing in any future builds.
First off, there is a place in Launch Base Zone act 2 that is the first underwater exit in Knuckles game. There is a red switch that changes the ceiling/floor (the things with the Red and Black strips that can be moved with switches). Well anyway, Super Tails' Super Flickies can hit this switch and allow Tails to access this area when he shouldn't be able to. This is in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I've tested it in this hack and the Super Flickies can still home in on this particular switch. (it's close to the end of Sonic/Tails route where the first part of Knuckles' act 2 intersects with Sonic and Tails' route from underwater.)

My next thing has to do with debug mode and the credits. I think debug mode needs to be disabled during the credits because it causes them to get stuck sometimes if you press B on accident as it can potentially screw up the scrolling text and other stuff. While not really a glitch, it should still be fixed to prevent people from fucking up the game here...

It's also kinda bothered me how Sonic goes to doomsday zone but tails doesn't since they have practically the same story and ending. It would make a bit more sense to have him go there by normal means but only when he gets the Super Emeralds. (as Super Tails can only be obtained with the Super Emeralds unless you count the 0517 super forms.....)

More suggestions if you feel up to implementing them eventually.

Also a bonus challenge for you Tiddles:

Glisp, on 18 March 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Edit: Just remembered something: Will we be seeing these unused 2 player mode sprites in a future build? Granted, 2 player mode isn't as enjoyable as the main game, but it's always bothered me that it was never corrected, not even in retail S3K.

The previous three aren't as important to me as the 2 player Knuckles sprites unused in the Sonic 3 ROM. Always kinda annoyed me that Knuckles was just a version of Sonic with less jump height in 2 player mode. This should remedy this issue, plus I don't think it's been fixed before so you might be the first to add in these unused sprites. This would definitely make Knuckles feel like his own character in 2 player mode rather than a rip off of Sonic.

This post has been edited by Glisp: 19 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

[Machenstein]

AerosolSP, on 19 March 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Make an SMPS and I'm sure Tiddles will consider it as a patch option. Though personally, I don't much like it. It doesn't fit the musical theme of MD S3&K if you ask me.

How about a longer variant of the invincibility theme? I'm sure there is a way to take the Sonic & Knuckles theme and extend it into a 20 second long Super theme. Maybe bits of this remix could serve as inspiration.

[KingofHarts]

MastaSys, on 18 March 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Knucklez, on 18 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Even if nothing is promised or ruled out, then shifting FBZ in-between CNZ and ICZ shouldn't be made as a permanent feature of the official release builds of S3C, but instead as a patch option. IDGAF what Sonic Team may have intended before breaking the game in two, but the order they put the stages in is the order they decided on in the end.

The original Sonic 3 (part one) level select screen shows that FBZ was in-between CNZ and ICZ, yes, but no one would have ever known that if it wasn't for cheat codes and whatnot to let you access it in the first place. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped the bandwagons from saying that FBZ should follow the original Sonic 3 level select order just because it's there. Based on what? You don't really know why it's still there. It may have been an honest mistake on Sonic Team's part for leaving it there to begin with. Yet, people base all this shit on their own assumptions with no legitimate proof to back up their claims. So whoever wants to sit there and support the idea of making this a certain or permanent feature is just supporting a scrapped idea that never happened, which isn't really Sonic 3-ifying the game now is it?

For the record, this isn't directed at one specific person, but rather a specific group of people. Thanks.

Let's play a game, do you know how to play "One of These"?
It's simple, of a group of similar objects some of them don't belong there, you need to find those.

Here's the US manual of Sonic 3, two of these don't belong here, can you guess where they are from?
http://info.sonicret...anual_22_23.jpg
http://info.sonicret...anual_24_25.jpg

The icon used in Sonic 3 Complete is a leftover from Sonic 3 alone, as other leftovers from the Zone.

Yes you might be right, but the other side isn't as wrong as you try to imply.
From what I see here plus the Stage Select AND the music location, Flying Battery was meant to be included with Sonic 3 Alone, there are some evidence on that.

If Tiddles considers it in the scope of being part of Sonic 3 in it's completed form, it should be included as a default.

I am proposing a possible solution to Tiddles regarding this.
Leave Sonic 3 (Part 1) the way it is, MAYBE allowing for FBZ to appear there as a patch option. (The only problem is do you still keep it in S&K ALONE in that same patch???) Meanwhile having Sonic 3 Complete make the level switch, moving FBZ to the proposed spot between Ice Cap and Launch Base.

One thing people need to remember is how much of an overhaul needs to be done to the Sonic 3 Complete portion to make this change. Shifting the level order is probably easy enough, but you gotta add to Carnival Night Zone Act 2 at the end, possibly porting stuff over from the MVZ Act 2 end scene. THEN the harder part comes with what to do for the transition between MVZ and Sandopolis Zone... bearing in mind that it basically has to be something new and original, which will take enough time as it is to conceptualize, then even more time to put into the game. which, by the way, is not really Sonic 3-ifying the game very much, but then again I'm sure no one would bitch too much.

SO, setting my proposal aside... I ask, is it really worth it?