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Sonic Mania experiences with Denuvo

#16 User is offline Cooljerk 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 08:02 AM

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View PostAshram, on 31 August 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

My question is, if this game was being developed by PagodaWest, Taxman, and Stealth here in America, why did SoE suddenly pipe up that they wanted this SPECIFIC DRM, and what was SoA's response?

Doesn't Taxman live in Australia? Stealth sent me an autographed copy of the mania manual, and got everyone at SoA to sign it, which included slingerland, but Tax wasn't available to sign, so I don't think he actually is in America (but I could be wrong).

#17 User is offline redhotsonic 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

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View Postwinterhell, on 31 August 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

That being said, I cant see how piracy would be an issue. If Steam's own protection is so weak, why aren't AAA publishers using denuvo...

Battlefield 1, Fifa 17, Watch Dogs 2, Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon, the list goes on for titles with Denuvo :)

As for the DRM in Sonic Mania, I'm a bit worried for my SSD, but otherwise, my PC runs flawlessly with it, and 99.99999% of the time my PC is on, the internet is on. I think most people are annoyed it got installed onto their PC when the descriptive page said nothing about DRM. And it's hard to remove even if you uninstall the game?

As for my specs:

- i7 6700k
-Nvidia 1070GTX
- 64GB RAM
- 1TB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
- 512GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
- and more high-end stuff that probably isn't important to the topic

EDIT: Spellings.
This post has been edited by redhotsonic: 31 August 2017 - 08:07 AM

#18 User is offline .Luke 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 10:48 AM

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View PostLapper, on 31 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Sonic Mania gives me no negative effects whatsoever.
Takes up about 2% Cpu I'd say, according to task manager. It spikes when loading at 12% maybe, between 1% and 12% in general.

Guess I'm just not in the 'ew I wont let that plague touch my PC' club. My PC is okay though, so I can't speak for laptops. I'm sure not everyone complaining about hating it or potential problems for themselves is on one though.

You must have a beefy CPU fit to use in a server machine. I have a 3.7GHz quad-core AMD CPU in my desktop, and Mania uses 30-50% CPU on average. I'm afraid to voice chat with friends on Discord while playing Time Attack for fear that my crappy stock fan will screech like a squeaky washing machine belt again if I dare try pushing it to 70% CPU usage. (Gonna replace that when I can, though.)

And before some people go "Eww, AMD": Non-Chowdren Freedom Planet never did that. Game Maker-based games I own on Steam hog less than 12% of my CPU on average. Risky's Revenge rarely goes above 2% CPU. (Whereas my laptop is pushed past 34%.) Compiling code is reasonably snappy. A VM of Windows 7 with Aero turned on runs fine. Not even Minecraft gets close to 50% on my machine, and we all know what that's made in.

A 2D game lovingly written in C++ shouldn't be taxing nearly half the power of a decent CPU. I'm half-expecting communities of slower game making programs to laugh a lot harder about these performance problems than would be tasteful. Mania deserved so much better than this nonsense dragging it down.

My Intel laptop is in a worse position. I'm upset that I can get games made in Unreal Engine, a bloated, inefficient hunk of junk compared to Source, to work well on my laptop with minimal INI fiddling, while Sonic Mania's most basic features in its INI or its GUI don't work.

Mania's Vsync option is still acting buggy on me. I can't turn it off on my laptop at all, which might mitigate at least some of my cooling problems.

#19 User is offline Jay T. 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:21 AM

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I have a AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition. The CPU bounces somewhere in the single digits up to maybe 30%. Even when it gets that high, it's only for a few seconds. So, no major problems here. Although I haven't received that update yet, I don't think. I put SonicMania.exe on my Antivirus' exception list anyway, just in case.

I do wanna echo Ashram's question though. Seems like SoE is the only one of the three that does the whole DRM thing. Could be wrong though.
This post has been edited by Jay T.: 31 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

#20 User is offline Glaber 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:34 AM

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I have to wonder if this Denuvo disaster will badly affect Sonic Forces' PC release.

#21 User is offline HEDGESMFG 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 11:41 AM

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The reviews are depressing to read.

I agree with them 100%. Denuvo may seem innocent to some, but it is ultimately a very bad thing for games in the long run (mostly due to the unneeded resource usage it causes on many PCs and locking out attempts at major modding for any legal copy). Sega needs to cave under pressure and remove it, as many devs have from their releases.

But this is still sad. Hopefully the gamers who don't buy this on PC will get it on another platform, but I refunded my copy as soon as the delay was announced. I knew this was coming.

#22 User is offline Dissent 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:26 PM

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i5 6600k + GTX 1070, no performance issues, generally about 20-30% CPU usage while playing. CPU runs at my typical idle temp of 30-31c.

Posted Image

I/O read/writes after loading in GHZ and running around for a few seconds. Mania performed a whopping ~8,000 bytes of read/write activity on the drive.

I'd scratch off the complaint of Denuvo impacting hard drives.

#23 User is offline CollectiveWater 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:28 PM

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I got a boilerplate message from someone at Sega Europe that links to this hilariously shallow FAQ about Denuvo which ignores several major issues with it: Sega Denuvo Boilerplate FAQ

Here was my response. I don't have an account on NeoGAF so I would love if someone here could post this in the Sonic Mania on PC uses Denuvo thread there. I also tweeted this reply to the official Sega Europe, Sega, Sonic the Hegehog accounts (and RubyEclipse)--feel free to RT that also if you'd like. (My just-started Twitter account is here.)

This boilerplate response does not address anything that I said, specifically the copious evidence that sales of the PC version have been/are dramatically hurt by the inclusion of Denuvo, and the fact that I refuse to purchase the game on PC unless Denuvo is removed. (I already own it on Switch & PS4. I have no issue supporting quality versions of the game, because the game is great, but y'all have absolutely ruined the PC version.)

Your FAQ about Denuvo conveniently fails to address several major concerns about the software.

1) Several antivirus programs automatically detect Denuvo as malware and delete files containing it. Users have to go out of their way to turn off their antivirus or make an exception for a specific file in order to even install it. That is an undue burden to put on people who bought the game and just want to play it.

2) Denuvo is made by the same people who previously made malware DRM software called SecuROM (Sony DADC was the name of the dev group). SecuROM was notoriously bad software that had a terrible reputation from users, but more importantly from major companies like Microsoft and EA. Microsoft deemed SecuROM to be software that becomes "deeply embedded in your system, and a possible loophole for computer viruses." Microsoft outright banned SecuROM from working on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10. Denuvo is simply the successor to SecuROM, so you're using software made by a company that recently had previous, very similar software completely blacklisted from working on every major version of the most popular operating system in the world. Source: https://arstechnica....ys-microsoft-2/

3) EA had to settle a class-action lawsuit brought against them for using SecuROM in their products and failing to disclose that information to buyers of the software. You literally hid the fact that Denuvo was inside "Sonic Mania" (it was not disclosed on the official Steam page or anywhere else prior to launch) until tens of thousands of people complained about it after finding out first-hand themselves once "Sonic Mania" was released. Steam has a mechanism in place for developers to disclose that Denuvo is included in their game, and you failed to utilize that mechanism and disclose that information. You could and should face a similar class-action lawsuit. Source: https://beyondsims.c...action-lawsuit/

4) Denuvo was found to be illegally using code/software from another company (VMProtect). It wasn't until this was discovered and VMProtect threatened to sue them for illegally using their code that Denuvo finally paid them for its usage/reached a settlement with them. Source: https://www.techdirt...iracy-drm.shtml

In summation, the creators of Denuvo have a long track record of being a shady company that makes malicious software. Their previous and very similar malware DRM software SecuROM was outright banned from working on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10 by Microsoft and its usage led to a class-action lawsuit against EA, which they had to settle. They clearly have not "gone clean," as evidenced by the fact they were perfectly comfortable illegally using another company's software/code without licensing/paying them for years, only doing so when they were caught red-handed. 

The fact you feel comfortable working with this company, implementing their malware into your game, failing to disclose to your customers that it is included in a highly anticipated game (the release of which by all accounts you delayed for two weeks merely to implement this malware into) speaks volumes about you as a company and the respect you have for your paying customers. The way you've responded to the criticisms from customers has been atrocious. All of this strongly indicates you simply do not care about your customers.

I really, really hope y'all come to your senses on this. All you have to do to fix this disaster is remove Denuvo from the PC version. People like me will then feel comfortable purchasing it, many of the nearly 1,000 negative user reviews on Steam would edit their review to positive and indicate they did so because you actually listened to their feedback, and so on. Everything you've said so far indicates this is not going to happen, though, and how utterly disappointing that is. I love "Sonic Mania." I've bought it on both Switch and PS4 and played through it multiple times. The dev team did the best job they possibly could and have significantly revitalized the series for you. I was beyond excited to be able to play the PC version using SLS and original Saturn controllers. I wanted the PC version to be extremely successful like the PS4 and Switch versions clearly have been. So far everything you have done has significantly hampered that from happening. Whether you realize it or not, you are ruining your own game's sales success on the biggest platform with the most potential customers. What a sad state of affairs.

Best regards,

Will Connor

#24 User is offline Dark Sonic 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

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^ Thank you for summing it up so eloquently. I may just send a response to the email Sega sent me with that post.

#25 User is offline winterhell 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:04 PM

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I would like to point out, that at times when the task manager reports 25% CPU usage, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is taking 100% out of 1 core. When a Vsync fence is encountered, the CPU enters idle mode until its time to flip the backbuffer. So a game might take 1ms to render the frame, and 15.6ms to wait for the vsync. You'd expect 1-2% CPU usage in said scenario, but the video driver can tell its a busy wait, so you see the CPU core usage max out. Some drivers do it right, some don't. Now I don't know how much it takes for the game engine to render one frame, or any other background processing it does, but here sometimes the core usage gets to 100% in the menus, other times it gets to 10% in the stages.

How much of this is the GPU incorrectly reporting wait times, or the Denuvo itself, hard to tell without the game creators.

Core i5 2500K desktop with Windows 7 here.

#26 User is offline Fenrir 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:16 PM

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When are companies going to understand that implementing anti-piracy crap like Denuvo will do nothing but make people pirate the game MORE? Seriously, between the delay and this garbage, the reviews and sales of Mania on PC is likely going to suffer fairly substantially, and I want nothing more than for this game to do as well as humanly possible, as I'm sure everyone here does. Because if it doesn't do well, I know damn well Sega isn't going to blame the DRM as the cause of the critical reception.

#27 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:17 PM

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Activation-based DRM will make the game unplayable in 20 years. This alone makes Denuvo a show-stopping no sale.

To everyone who thinks this is an unreasonable request, I have one simple question for you - how old is S3&K, never mind 1, 2 or CD?

#28 User is offline nineko 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 03:03 PM

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View PostFenrir, on 31 August 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

When are companies going to understand that implementing anti-piracy crap like Denuvo will do nothing but make people pirate the game MORE? Seriously, between the delay and this garbage, the reviews and sales of Mania on PC is likely going to suffer fairly substantially
Indeed, I don't want to reiterate but all of this could have been avoided if they took the easy route and made CDs instead of going through a lot of effort with the only result to make things worse instead of better.

But hey, when/if there will be a way to play this without Steam, I'll make sure to send a gift to Taxman and Stealth out of respect.

#29 User is offline Aesculapius Piranha 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

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So, Denuvo hacking thread when?
This post has been edited by Aesculapius Piranha: 31 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

#30 User is offline CollectiveWater 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 04:07 PM

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View PostOverlord, on 31 August 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Activation-based DRM will make the game unplayable in 20 years. This alone makes Denuvo a show-stopping no sale.

To everyone who thinks this is an unreasonable request, I have one simple question for you - how old is S3&K, never mind 1, 2 or CD?

Spot-on. Look what happened with games that used SafeDisc and SecuROM malware DRM, which Microsoft banned from working on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10. Some studios put out updates that removed the DRM so their game could be playable, but many did not. The only legitimate way for people to play a game they bought between 2003-2011 that uses either of those malware DRM services is to now buy a second working copy of the game on a modern digital storefront, if it's even available on one. I bet a lot of publishers of those games are secretly pleased that this is the case. Despicable.

Only a matter of time before the same fate befalls Denuvo (Denuvo is the successor to SecuROM/made by the same people, after all). 20 years is likely a generous estimate--I'd give it less than 10.

Regarding folks inquiring why Sega Europe is responsible for the PC version/implementing the DRM: it seems like Sega Europe handles most if not all of Sega's PC releases. Or at least they handle all the customer support for their PC releases. If you go to the U.S. Sega site, navigate to the support page at the bottom, and then click on support for computer games, it takes you directly to the UK support page.
This post has been edited by CollectiveWater: 01 September 2017 - 12:29 AM

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