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Sonic Mania experiences with Denuvo

#31 User is offline Stimil Rc. 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:11 PM

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As far as I know, I've suffered no consequences. Mania doesn't appear to hog a lot of resources and it plays as expected, barring a few bugs in the game itself. What's funny is that I apparently live under a rock. I didn't even know about Denuvo until people stared talking about it in the Mania thread a few weeks ago.

Mania is the first Denuvo game I've ever purchased. It seems to be mainly tied to AAA games, which I almost never buy because I tend to prefer retro/story-lite/arcadey games.

View PostFenrir, on 31 August 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

When are companies going to understand that implementing anti-piracy crap like Denuvo will do nothing but make people pirate the game MORE?

I get a person refusing to buy a game that they may like because they refuse to indirectly support intrusive DRM, but I never got why people would just pirate it instead. For what reason were they going to purchase it in the first place?

#32 User is offline LimitCrown 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:30 PM

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Most of this controversy is due to people not bothering to fact-check information that they read from others on the internet and this inane anti-DRM hysteria that people have because of rumors like this. The fact of the matter is that Denuvo does nothing to negatively affect your computer. Anyone who claims otherwise either do not know what they're talking about or they're outright liars. Those who claim that it's malware should be reminded of what the definition of malware is. The online-only thing was an error that was fixed and is not a requirement of Denuvo. I have no sympathy to people who wish to misinform people after being told othewise for the sake of reducing a publisher's sales or try to rationalize piracy. If you care about the game, then you would be willing to give money to the developers by purchasing their game.

Also, if anyone actually cared that much about DRM to the point of refusing to buy a game if it had an implementation of it, then I question why they even have a Steam account. Games that are on Steam will more likely than not use its type of DRM. Denuvo itself is an anti-tampering program that protects DRM methods.
This post has been edited by LimitCrown: 31 August 2017 - 05:42 PM

#33 User is offline tokumaru 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:38 PM

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View PostLimitCrown, on 31 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Also, if anyone actually cared that much about DRM to the point of refusing to buy a game if it had an implementation of it, then I question why they even have a Steam account.

The only reason I have a Steam account is Sonic Mania. I'm not a gamer anymore, I don't own any current-gen consoles, so the only way to play this game is Steam, unfortunately.

#34 User is offline Effexor 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 06:51 PM

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View PostStimil Rc., on 31 August 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

I get a person refusing to buy a game that they may like because they refuse to indirectly support intrusive DRM, but I never got why people would just pirate it instead. For what reason were they going to purchase it in the first place?

Probably because they still want to play the game. By pirating it, they can still play the game, but they also aren't supporting the company who decided to put something like Denuvo in it. Which sucks because, as is I'm assuming this case, the developers might not have wanted to have it in their game in the first place.

#35 User is offline Stimil Rc. 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 07:32 PM

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View PostEffexor, on 31 August 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Probably because they still want to play the game. By pirating it, they can still play the game, but they also aren't supporting the company who decided to put something like Denuvo in it. Which sucks because, as is I'm assuming this case, the developers might not have wanted to have it in their game in the first place.

That's not answering my question, though. I know that they want to play it and that they don't want to support DRM, so even purchasing the game and getting a cracked version as soon as possible works against that.

What I'm asking is what their reason for paying for DRM free games is if compensating a business for their product or supporting a product they enjoy and want to see more of aren't good enough reasons. They're gonna get the game no matter what, so why not just pirate everything?

#36 User is offline CollectiveWater 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 08:16 PM

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View PostLimitCrown, on 31 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Most of this controversy is due to people not bothering to fact-check information that they read from others on the internet and this inane anti-DRM hysteria that people have because of rumors like this. The fact of the matter is that Denuvo does nothing to negatively affect your computer. Anyone who claims otherwise either does not know what they're talking about or they're outright liars. Those who claim that it's malware should be reminded of what the definition of malware is. The online-only thing was an error that was fixed and is not a requirement of Denuvo. I have no sympathy to people who wish to misinform people after being told othewise for the sake of reducing a publisher's sales or try to rationalize piracy. If you care about the game, then you would be willing to give money to the developers by purchasing their game.

Also, if anyone actually cared that much about DRM to the point of refusing to buy a game if it had an implementation of it, then I question why they even have a Steam account. Games that are on Steam will more likely than not use its type of DRM. Denuvo itself is an anti-tampering program that protects DRM methods.


Did you read my first post on the previous page? I purchased the game twice on two other platforms. The only thing worse than people who believe misinformation (and yes, there is misinformation about Denuvo--there are no credible reports about it doing anything wonky to a SSD or HDD, for example, etc.) is people who think that folks against malicious DRM are trying to harm a game's sales or trying to rationalize piracy. I own 170 games on Steam (sure, not that many compared to many other people--I only buy games I actually intend to play/experience at some point) and have owned probably close to double that on consoles over the years. I've never pirated a game or anything else in my entire life. Just because there might be some dipshit pirates that cling onto anti-DRM arguments for their own bullshit purposes doesn't mean that *all* or even most of us who are opposed to DRM for objective reasons are also somehow one ourselves. If you honestly think more than 5%, much less more than 50%, of people who are staunchly against DRM are pirates, that seems to say more about you than anything else.

As for saying folks against Denuvo should be reminded of what the definition of malware is: Microsoft said this about SecuROM, the extremely similar DRM software the makers of Denuvo previously made before it failed and they were bought out: "it's deeply embedded in your system, and a possible loophole for computer viruses." They banned any software that contained SecuROM from working on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10. Does that not fit the definition of malware to you? If it doesn't, then you must have a lot of unnecessary junk and viruses on your computer. Hope you backup and do clean installs often. Denuvo itself illegally used code from another company for years before they were caught and finally paid up. Does this sound like a super credible company to you, one that you would put a lot of trust in?

As for why people who are against malicious DRM would use Steam: well, there's a pretty obvious answer for that. 95%+ of PC games are sold on their service, and a huge percent of PC games are *only* available on their service. Retail/physical copies of PC games are essentially non-existent now; unlike the console market PC has almost completely gone digital (for better and worse). Even a lot of games that *are* available on GoG and other DRM-free services don't receive the same benefits/treatment as the Steam release--they lag severely behind in patches/updates, etc. People who are against malicious DRM use Steam because we don't have a fucking choice--they completely dominate the market. And unlike additional DRM like Denuvo, there are indeed benefits to using Steam--easy access to all your games, cloud saves, don't have to worry/think as much about backing up your games/saves if you move to a new computer or do a clean install, frequent sales on games, even the ability to make money to save on future purchases via dumb shit like cards and other items you get for free by playing games and can sell in their marketplace, etc. There are *no* benefits to the customer like that with additional DRM like Denuvo. They're not remotely the same thing, so don't pretend like they are. And maybe I'm gullible, but I absolutely believe Valve would strip their own launcher DRM from games in the highly unlikely scenario they were shutting down the service for some reason. So I'm not worried about losing my games or having compatibility break/being unable to launch them with Steam. Lastly, as you're probably aware, many games on Steam are launcher-free, meaning you can run them without opening/using Steam. Ironically that includes all the classic 2D Sonic games (except CD): Games on Steam you can play without even using/running Steam--100% DRM-free.

Like I said on the previous page, I was rooting for the PC version of "Mania" to be incredibly successful. I've been casually monitoring its sales across various platforms since the beginning of August. Hate to break it to you, but it seems incredibly likely that the PC version has suffered worse sales than other platforms as a result of both the PC version being delayed by two weeks and the Denuvo disaster/negative reviews and comments across the internet. "Mania" is the #1 best selling digital game on the Playstation Store, and has been for the last week. (It was the #4 game overall for its first week, behind massive heavyweights "GTA V," "Friday the 13th," and "Hellblade," which released a week before it, but it quickly ascended to #1 and has remained there since.) It's also the #1 best-selling game on the Switch eShop, and has been since shortly after its release.

Meanwhile the highest it ever went on Steam's top seller list was #3, on the 29th, and it has quickly fallen to #21 currently, in two days. Why do you think it's been #1 on Switch for over 2 weeks and #1 on PS4 for the last week, and yet the highest it managed to reach on Steam was #3 with a precipitous dropoff to #21, in *two* days? Steam has more games/competition than the other platforms ("Battlegrounds" is a juggernaut in terms of sales), but it should easily still be in the top 10 and even the top 5.

Of course I can't provide conclusive evidence the Denuvo disaster is the reason as to why, but it seems pretty obvious, especially when you see tons of comments on GAF, Twitter, Steam forums, and elsewhere on the internet of people saying they have already refunded their game or are going to unless Denuvo is removed. The GAF thread has almost 60,000 views. Almost 1,000 negative reviews on Steam. Jim Sterling's video about the matter has 134,000 views. Not only does all this lead to refunds but it also has a knock-on effect of making people who were considering getting it not bother.

Ultimately this whole fiasco isn't gonna ruin the game's financial success, by any means. It's clearly doing gangbusters on PS4 and Switch (and probably fine on Xbox One, too). But the PC is obviously the largest userbase you could possibly sell a game to, and "Mania" is exactly the type of game at the type of pricepoint that should be doing incredibly well on that platform. I suspect it'll still do well there overall, especially months/years down the line when it's in summer/winter sales, but it clearly could have sold even better, especially at the outset at full price. The fact it isn't due to a self-inflicted wound by the publisher themselves is just sad. Oh well.
This post has been edited by CollectiveWater: 31 August 2017 - 09:46 PM

#37 User is offline Effexor 

Posted 31 August 2017 - 09:40 PM

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View PostStimil Rc., on 31 August 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

View PostEffexor, on 31 August 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Probably because they still want to play the game. By pirating it, they can still play the game, but they also aren't supporting the company who decided to put something like Denuvo in it. Which sucks because, as is I'm assuming this case, the developers might not have wanted to have it in their game in the first place.

That's not answering my question, though. I know that they want to play it and that they don't want to support DRM, so even purchasing the game and getting a cracked version as soon as possible works against that.

What I'm asking is what their reason for paying for DRM free games is if compensating a business for their product or supporting a product they enjoy and want to see more of aren't good enough reasons. They're gonna get the game no matter what, so why not just pirate everything?

I don't think I'm getting what you're asking. If they pirate everything, then they aren't supporting the companies that make the games they enjoy, so they're less likely to get more games that they enjoy. If they buy games they enjoy, they can support the companies and get more in the future, because they don't make things for free. However, if people care about DRM enough, a company suddenly putting DRM in their favorite games will drive them to not want to support those practices. If they don't buy the game and, instead, get a cracked version, they aren't supporting the company, which is what some people are being driven to do.

Paying a company for a product is basically saying "yes, I approve of this, do more of it, all of it." Not buying a product is saying either "this doesn't intrest me" or "I don't approve of this." Pirating a game can either mean "what's paying for things :v:" or "I want to actually own my game and not have to jump through all these hoops to play it."

I'm trying to understand what you're asking, but if this doesn't explain it, then I think we'll just be talking in circled. I'm bad at explaining these things.

#38 User is offline Stimil Rc. 

Posted 01 September 2017 - 03:25 AM

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View PostEffexor, on 31 August 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't think I'm getting what you're asking. If they pirate everything, then they aren't supporting the companies that make the games they enjoy, so they're less likely to get more games that they enjoy. If they buy games they enjoy, they can support the companies and get more in the future, because they don't make things for free. However, if people care about DRM enough, a company suddenly putting DRM in their favorite games will drive them to not want to support those practices. If they don't buy the game and, instead, get a cracked version, they aren't supporting the company, which is what some people are being driven to do.

Paying a company for a product is basically saying "yes, I approve of this, do more of it, all of it." Not buying a product is saying either "this doesn't intrest me" or "I don't approve of this." Pirating a game can either mean "what's paying for things :v:/>/>" or "I want to actually own my game and not have to jump through all these hoops to play it."

I'm trying to understand what you're asking, but if this doesn't explain it, then I think we'll just be talking in circled. I'm bad at explaining these things.

I'll try to rephrase the point I was trying to make: Regardless of how much they dislike DRM, the fact remains that money is needed to both give them more of what they like and compensate the people who make those things, who need money to support their livelihood. The fact that they're willing to disregard this and get it for free raises the question of what motivated them to pay before DRM was a factor.

They could boycott it, but that means that they're not getting the game. They could just pay for the game and find a cracked version so they can own it, but that means they're supporting DRM that they're already bypassing (and apparently nothing else). By getting a cracked version without spending anything, they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

I apologize if the point I'm making is still unclear. If it is, then I agree that we'll just be going in circles.

#39 User is offline Chibisteven 

Posted 01 September 2017 - 05:40 AM

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View PostStimil Rc., on 01 September 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

I'll try to rephrase the point I was trying to make: Regardless of how much they dislike DRM, the fact remains that money is needed to both give them more of what they like and compensate the people who make those things, who need money to support their livelihood. The fact that they're willing to disregard this and get it for free raises the question of what motivated them to pay before DRM was a factor.

They could boycott it, but that means that they're not getting the game. They could just pay for the game and find a cracked version so they can own it, but that means they're supporting DRM that they're already bypassing (and apparently nothing else). By getting a cracked version without spending anything, they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

I apologize if the point I'm making is still unclear. If it is, then I agree that we'll just be going in circles.


Or they could be doing what I'm doing. Not buying the game until they remove the DRM. Not bothering with piracy because they rarely pirate anything to begin with because getting sued isn't something they want to deal with. I get people want to be paid, however I prefer not to be treated as potential criminal. So no sale from me, hell I won't even bother to pirate the dumb game because it isn't worth it to me at all.

A couple of years ago I bought a piece of recording hardware that came with Pro Tools 10 (legally bought and paid for). I get the drivers for the hardware and it is working nicely. Now I try to install Pro Tools 10 but I'm finding out I have to register an iLok account, install a piece of software I didn't want that basically works like a rootkit and have a dongle plugged into one of my USB ports just to use the software. Eventually I find out I need to spend $80 on a support ticket just to get software support because I simply cannot get it to work at all. At this point I'm like fuck it, I'm done with this shit. You know what? The piece of hardware I have still works, but the included Pro Tools 10 software? I throw it in the trash along with the stupid dongle. I just use Audacity which is open source and free and it works just fine with the piece of hardware I bought all these years ago to this day.

You know what SEGA did that pissed most people off? Not saying there was any DRM included until hours after the release. Delaying the game for 2 weeks to probably add this crap to it. Included Sonic 1 as apology for the delay preventing people from being able to refund their purchase because Valve counts it as released through their automated systems. Valve backtracks on their policy and SEGA basically gets away with ripping a ton of people off in the process. It's stuff like that makes me glad I didn't pre-order this at all. And after reading about this crap that happened, I'll never pre-order any game from anyone, ever because I know the kind of games these companies can now play in order to rip others off.

Denuvo is far from necessary, period. Good luck using this game in about 5-10 years at the least. I think Overlord was a little too generous with that 20 year comment.

#40 User is offline nineko 

Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:28 AM

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Anyway, here's an old XKCD:
Posted Image

#41 User is offline LowSeasCaroz 

Posted 01 September 2017 - 08:30 AM

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I have no problems with running Mania on my slightly older Windows 7 Medion PC. Mania takes up ~20-25% when in menus, and even less during gameplay. For some reason.
Denuvo problems definitely have nothing to do with AMD processors, because my PC runs on an AMD A8-3820 Vision, and uses the mediocre built-in graphics unit.

#42 User is offline High Fidelity 

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View PostChibisteven, on 01 September 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:


A couple of years ago I bought a piece of recording hardware that came with Pro Tools 10 (legally bought and paid for). I get the drivers for the hardware and it is working nicely. Now I try to install Pro Tools 10 but I'm finding out I have to register an iLok account, install a piece of software I didn't want that basically works like a rootkit and have a dongle plugged into one of my USB ports just to use the software. Eventually I find out I need to spend $80 on a support ticket just to get software support because I simply cannot get it to work at all. At this point I'm like fuck it, I'm done with this shit. You know what? The piece of hardware I have still works, but the included Pro Tools 10 software? I throw it in the trash along with the stupid dongle. I just use Audacity which is open source and free and it works just fine with the piece of hardware I bought all these years ago to this day.



Fuck iLok!!! Haha I hate that shit.

Although I think this is much different. I haven't noticed anything about mania DRM that's been intrusive to me.

It runs fine, no problems. I wouldn't even know it had DRM if I wasn't told.

#43 User is offline Overlord 

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View PostLowSeasCaroz, on 01 September 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

I have no problems with running Mania on my slightly older Windows 7 Medion PC. Mania takes up ~20-25% when in menus, and even less during gameplay. For some reason.
Denuvo problems definitely have nothing to do with AMD processors, because my PC runs on an AMD A8-3820 Vision, and uses the mediocre built-in graphics unit.

You're lucky - I've seen reports of people with multi-thousand dollar gaming beasts that are dropping frames on Mania, never mind those that can't play it at all due to the Denuvo malware. A gaming PC that costs that much should be able to run the game at a solid 60fps, a game that could have feasibly been made on the Saturn.

#44 User is offline LimitCrown 

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View PostCollectiveWater, on 31 August 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

View PostLimitCrown, on 31 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Most of this controversy is due to people not bothering to fact-check information that they read from others on the internet and this inane anti-DRM hysteria that people have because of rumors like this. The fact of the matter is that Denuvo does nothing to negatively affect your computer. Anyone who claims otherwise either does not know what they're talking about or they're outright liars. Those who claim that it's malware should be reminded of what the definition of malware is. The online-only thing was an error that was fixed and is not a requirement of Denuvo. I have no sympathy to people who wish to misinform people after being told othewise for the sake of reducing a publisher's sales or try to rationalize piracy. If you care about the game, then you would be willing to give money to the developers by purchasing their game.

Also, if anyone actually cared that much about DRM to the point of refusing to buy a game if it had an implementation of it, then I question why they even have a Steam account. Games that are on Steam will more likely than not use its type of DRM. Denuvo itself is an anti-tampering program that protects DRM methods.


Did you read my first post on the previous page? I purchased the game twice on two other platforms. The only thing worse than people who believe misinformation (and yes, there is misinformation about Denuvo--there are no credible reports about it doing anything wonky to a SSD or HDD, for example, etc.) is people who think that folks against malicious DRM are trying to harm a game's sales or trying to rationalize piracy. I own 170 games on Steam (sure, not that many compared to many other people--I only buy games I actually intend to play/experience at some point) and have owned probably close to double that on consoles over the years. I've never pirated a game or anything else in my entire life. Just because there might be some dipshit pirates that cling onto anti-DRM arguments for their own bullshit purposes doesn't mean that *all* or even most of us who are opposed to DRM for objective reasons are also somehow one ourselves. If you honestly think more than 5%, much less more than 50%, of people who are staunchly against DRM are pirates, that seems to say more about you than anything else.

As for saying folks against Denuvo should be reminded of what the definition of malware is: Microsoft said this about SecuROM, the extremely similar DRM software the makers of Denuvo previously made before it failed and they were bought out: "it's deeply embedded in your system, and a possible loophole for computer viruses." They banned any software that contained SecuROM from working on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10. Does that not fit the definition of malware to you? If it doesn't, then you must have a lot of unnecessary junk and viruses on your computer. Hope you backup and do clean installs often. Denuvo itself illegally used code from another company for years before they were caught and finally paid up. Does this sound like a super credible company to you, one that you would put a lot of trust in?

The points that you brought up in your first post are mainly foolish and have nothing to do with Denuvo itself.

Regarding your first point, if an antivirus mistakenly marks a program as being malware, then that's the fault of the antivirus, not the program. If I were to use your logic, then I would have considered mGBA to not be trustworthy all because Avast thought it was possible malware at one point.

For your second and third points, I couldn't care less about this SecuROM program; we're talking about Denuvo. Perhaps I should remind you what the definition of malware is. It's software that is designed to cause damage to computers and other systems. Under that, I wouldn't brand either of those two programs as being malware and it's obvious that you're misusing the word to try to sway other people the way that a fearmonger does. Also, from what I've read, EA's problem is that they outright refused to say whether they were using SecuROM while the page for Sonic Mania not displaying the information about Denuvo was an accident that was eventually corrected.

Lastly, your fourth point has nothing to do with how Denuvo works.

Four points you used and none of them prove anything about Denuvo being malicious software. Despite this, you dishonestly try to portray it as such. Also, near the beginning, you claimed that the mere inclusion of Denuvo hurts sales, except that's not the actual reason. If you look at both the Sonic the Hedgehog subreddit and many of the negative reviews on Steam that people foolishly posted, you can see that several of them allege that Denuvo is a virus or malware, that it harms your computer, that it's somehow anticonsumer (which doesn't make sense when most people who would have downloaded the game wouldn't even notice anything), etc. I would definitely say that this fiasco is due to people spreading false or irrelevant information to scare users or try to convince them that piracy is the "morally right" thing to do in response. I despise liars, and I have no patience for people who try to justify either those or others not fact-checking. I don't think that SEGA should change their decision because of a bunch of misinfomed people making others misinformed.
This post has been edited by LimitCrown: 01 September 2017 - 02:19 PM

#45 User is offline CollectiveWater 

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View PostLimitCrown, on 01 September 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

Regarding your first point, if an antivirus mistakenly marks a program as being malware, then that's the fault of the antivirus, not the program. If I were to use your logic, then I would have considered mGBA to not be trustworthy all because Avast thought it was possible malware at one point.


Did you just literally admit to using an emulator in a post in which you are trying to say you're "against piracy"? (And somehow seem to be implying I'm for it, even though I provided evidence that I legally own my games on PC.) I'll get to addressing your other shallow rebuttals when I get home from work, but noticing this was way too good to pass up.
This post has been edited by CollectiveWater: 01 September 2017 - 05:11 PM

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