Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board: Does Mania shake up the formula enough? - Sonic and Sega Retro Message Board

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Does Mania shake up the formula enough?

#1 User is offline Laura 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:01 AM

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I was talking to my BFF Palas on the SEGA Forums and he made an interesting point that the new gimmick they introduced for the Fire Shield arguably doesn't go far enough. And this got me thinking, in some ways I don't think Mania does go far enough to shake up the Classic formula and not just the fact the Act 1 layouts are roughly the same as the original levels. The Fire Shield melts bridges, the Electric Shield causes uplift on Flying Battery etc, which is cool, but wouldn't it be cooler if they had more significant changes? One's that affected the levels greater. Or do you think that would dilute the Classic Formula?

Also, when I think about it, we aren't really getting many new adjustments to the core mechanics, outside of the Drop Dash (which is great). No new shields, characters, etc.

What do you guys think? Are you perfectly happy with the way it is? Or would you like to see (hopefully) sequels expand on the core mechanics.

#2 User is offline big smile 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:08 AM

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The last game to properly utilise the classic formula was Sonic & Knuckles (although the Classic stages in Generations come close).

So the classic formula doesn't need radically shaking up. It has been untouched for so long, that it has become 'new'.

Mania offers plenty of new content, so it already feels very fresh. I wouldn't want future sequels to radically shake up the formula either.
I'd much prefer them gradually evolve it, just like Mania has evolved it from Sonic & Knuckles.

#3 User is online Dark Sonic 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:11 AM

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Considering it's the first game to really go the classic route in over 20 years, it doesn't matter. For some, it's a breath of fresh air and a sigh of relief that we're finally getting this kinda thing again. For others it's a blast from the past, and if it was too different it might spook them. I think it's doing everything right, except maybe GHZ could fuck off (they did a good job with it though).

I bet if they're given another opportunity they'll build more off the formula rather than continuing to build with the formula. New shields, more adventurous gimmicks, maybe another character, things like that. But for now it's all good.

#4 User is offline Indigo Rush 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:23 AM

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I personally consider Mania more of a first step into proving the foundation of the Classic style; honestly the changes and shake-ups they actually have made go above and beyond what I would have expected from the product description of "retro Sonic with some new Zones," so I'm more than pleased with the level of changes to the formula so far.
This post has been edited by Indigo Rush: 14 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

#5 User is offline VectorCNC 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:33 AM

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Imagine the backlash if Sega finally gave us classic gameplay, only to mess it up by "shaking things up". It would be the final nail in the coffin. Following Sonic 4, and with Sega's track record of logic, I'm surprised that Mania is seeing the light of day. I think Mania is juuuuuuuust right as it is. Why do we need a shake up after 2 decades of begging for a return to form? Let Mania 2 make further changes with each iteration, but Mania 1 is all about proving Classic can succeed, period. For that matter, why the need to shake things up at all? Subtle refinements haven't hurt Mario in the slightest. And all that aside, Mania has slightly built upon the classics, so I think they are playing things very smart.
This post has been edited by VectorCNC: 14 July 2017 - 11:35 AM

#6 User is offline Ell678 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:35 AM

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I think using the shields in more unique / environmentally affecting ways is awesome. I did it in Incursion first though lolololol original idea do not steal

Stuff like that doesn't exactly detract from the formula, nor add to it that significantly enough to cause an issue. I feel it is a new gimmick that, in time, will find it's own place in "Rejuvenated 2D" just like the spindash, flying, and Super forms in the classic games. As long as the games play well, we'll lap it up every time.

#7 User is offline Sparks 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:54 AM

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All of the element shields have new effects;
Fire shield sets various things ablaze, bubble shield has more realistic bounce physics, and the lightning shield is susceptible to magnets. We don't know yet if there will be more interactions in other levels yet.

The combi-ring is also going to be a new power up to most players, specially those who have never heard of Chaotix.

Level design wise, the game is looking like it's an evolution up from Sonic 3K in terms of exploration and speed.

Overall I'd say Mania is in the right direction.

#8 User is offline Covarr 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:28 PM

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Considering the franchise's biggest problem for years has been shaking things up that didn't need shaken up, this is probably the smartest choice. Let Mania be the big classic throwback it's touting itself as, and after it proves the classic formula successful then let the team work on a sequel that takes more risks.

#9 User is offline TheKazeblade 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:43 PM

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I don't want to be one of those people that say "wait 'til it comes out" in this regard because of how abused that term has become, but in this PARTICULAR situation, I think it applies. So much of what I consider "progression" in terms of Classic Sonic has a lot to do with aspects we haven't seen yet, like how zones interface with each other, how narrative is handled and how well the game flows as a whole. It's not limited just to gameplay mechanics.

I will say I know for sure I wish this wasn't Generations 1.5. At this point, the new zones have proven themselves to be far more creative and capitalzing on the strengths of Sonic's gameplay better than the Classic zones represented. The fact that the Act 2's of the Classic zones shown so far do so much new proves the Mania team has always had the creativity and skill to make a 100% original games.

It also further convinces me the only reason we have Classic areas at all is because Sonic Team refuses to be completely upstaged by this small indie Western studio and forced the classic areas in there so they can still bask in some of the glory. We know for a fact from interviews that Classic zones were not part of the original pitch by Taxman and Stealth, but "recommended" by Iizuka. It was probably the condition that had to be agreed to in order to get Mania greenlit.

The only aspect I've seen so far in Mania that is regressive is the Act 1's of the Classic zones which are obviously the weakest links.

#10 User is offline 360 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:14 PM

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Sonic Mania is perfect as is - it doesn't need a reinvention or innovation of the golden formula from the nineties. This style of pure Sonic has been in hibernation since Sonic 3K - it should be brought back in its original state, and even then we are seeing new shit like the drop dash, advanced elemental shields and an entirely new zone roster. It's the right amount of new and deviating any further outside of that would ruin the preciousness of the concept to be honest. It's the reignition and revival of nineties-era Sonic - and that spirit and core should be kept in-tact.

Leave the potential innovation for the likely sequels - but make the first game as pure as possible.

Cool thread though Laura. An interesting discussion to have.

#11 User is offline JcFerggy 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:28 PM

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Speaking of shield properties, both Fire and Electric shields get lost when going in water. I've had this idea for a while now where using a Water shield in an ice level would cause it to freeze and break. Underwater it would be fine, but on land it would start to freeze after a few seconds then just shatter. Either that, or it will still stay around, but trying to use the bounce would cause it to break.

#12 User is offline HedgeHayes 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:38 PM

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I think we already discussed this in the main Mania thread, since more people was worried about it not feeling relly new or interesting. My answer then was the same given here, stay safe with the old stuff for now and leave innovation for further titles if they happen. It's not like that much changed from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2, so it can happen again in S3&K 2, err, Sonic Mania (just kidding, but it was an appropiate link between "generations" :v:).

#13 User is offline Indigo Rush 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:39 PM

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Regarding new properties for the elemental shields, I noticed that the bubble shield lets the player walk across pools of the blue mega mack in Chemical Plant 2 in some footage. That's something new, right?
This post has been edited by Indigo Rush: 14 July 2017 - 01:40 PM

#14 User is offline Zephyr 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:53 PM

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It helps to remember that Sonic CD didn't add new shields or playable characters either. And much like Mania, it wasn't a "numbered" release.

#15 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:55 PM

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I'm perfectly happy with the new mechanics being mostly level gimmicks and shield interactions. If anything, I'd say they may have crossed the line a bit with the removal of the default Insta-shield.

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