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What is a story but a miserable pile of etc etc etc

#16 User is offline JaredAFX 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:50 AM

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The timeline that Timmi linked is more sarcastic, yes, but I think it's more accurate. I believe that the simpler it is, the better. You don't need to specifically mention the Advance games because it's obvious they're between Adventure and Shadow, the Rush games are slightly after that, and the Riders games are slightly after that/during that. Your head canon has a 99% chance of being different than mine. Something I think is definitive is that if Chronicles isn't canon we can also throw out Battle and just call Gemerl in Advance 3 a coincidence. I think it makes it easier instead of trying to justify Shadow magically being back (unless you put Battle after Heroes or Shadow, but again, that's individual head canons at work).

#17 User is offline Pengi 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 12:44 PM

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Tails Adventures takes place before Tails met Sonic. Tails' Sky Patrol mentions Sonic in the manual, so it would come after Sonic 2.

I doubt Sega consider either of them to be part of the main continuity though.

#18 User is offline biggestsonicfan 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 12:48 PM

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I never EVER thought I would ever get to post this ancient quote contextually ever again...

BaronSFel001 said:

As for its ultimate destruction, the Death Egg has proven quite resilient. This still brings up the question of why the Death Egg 2 was even constructed if the original was still intact somewhere. And do not counter this by saying Sonic the Fighters is not canon: you and I have already had this argument.


#19 User is offline David The Lurker 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:17 PM

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View PostDigitalDuck, on 14 March 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

I can't get behind CD being before 2/3k because it doesn't make sense to me that Eggman would build Metal Sonic first and then the much crappier Mecha Sonics afterwards. Putting CD between the two (release order) doesn't work either because the time between 2/3 really small (a few days) and Eggman was on Angel Island the entire time with a broken Death Egg. Knuckles also shows up alongside Metal Sonic in Chaotix and Triple Trouble, which doesn't work after 4's retcon to have Metal stuck on little planet between CD/4.


Well, a few days (was it days? I thought it was a few weeks, but it's irrelevant either way) is long enough to have an adventure, but not with Eggman making an appearance. Sonic 4 essentially has to take place immediately after Sonic CD, and it makes sense that CD takes place after 3 because of Metal Sonic; it's also implied that CD is Sonic's first encounter with Metal Sonic, which would mean Triple Trouble must take place sometime after CD and 4. Chaotix should come sometime after that because of Metal Sonic's increase in power, and Heroes at some point further in the future with both a more advanced Metal Sonic and the return of the Chaotix.

Tails' own games could take place either before Sonic 2, or between Sonic 3 and Sonic 4; I always picture Sonic 1 8-bit and Sonic 1 16-bit as being two different tellings of the same story; Sonic 2 8-bit and Sonic Chaos would probably take place before Sonic 2 16-bit; nobody gives a shit about Sonic Blast or Sonic 3D, and of course Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 takes place after Sonic Heroes.


Having CD take place after 3 because of Metal Sonic is not a flawless argument, though. Metal Sonic looks more pleasing, but that is a specialized model focused on speed, right? He can harm Sonic during the race in Stardust Speedway, but only if Sonic runs into him while he's doing certain things. They are not actively battling. So Sonic wins, Metal's face flies off, and later on Eggman goes off to build the Death Egg and look for the Chaos Emeralds again. Mecha Sonic (the first one who looks silver) is nothing more than a stopgap measure by Eggman, never thinking that Sonic would get as far as he did. That model is focused more on brute force. Perhaps Mecha was a prototype to Metal that Eggman abandoned, then pulled out of storage? Maybe it was just an experiment since Metal had been defeated and lost on Little Planet and Eggman was too busy building other things to actually make an alternate version of Metal Sonic? Either way, Mecha isn't presented as some huge deal. And as Sonic 3 takes place maybe a week after 2, possibly less, Eggman is focusing rebuilding the Death Egg and tricking Knuckles and all that fun stuff. Rebuilding Mecha Sonic and painting him blue is probably a lot easier than trying to make the next step in Metal Sonic's architecture.

Sonic 4 can't take place immediately after Sonic CD, that's silly. It has to be eleven months later. Triple Trouble can't take place at all because Sonic and Knuckles, in the Japanese manual, meet for the first time. You can't meet someone for the first time twice, and there's no way either of them forgot about the other. That's why having most of the Game Gear games being their own continuity makes sense, just because that erases so many headaches. I'd rather the Game Gear games be their own thing anyway, since we already have a million different Sonic continuities. What's the harm in another one?

Tails' Adventures takes place before Tails meets Sonic, as stated in the Japanese manual. Is it before Sonic 2 or Sonic 1? Not super important. Chaotix takes places a couple months after 3 & Knuckles, which gives Eggman enough time to rebuild Metal Sonic and experiment with him. Before Sonic 4 came out, I always assumed Eggman just rebuilt Metal, but with Sonic 4? I like to think that we just have a trilogy of games where Metal Sonic exists but is actually a second version - Chaotix, Fighters, and R - but is destroyed/abandoned by the time we get to 4.

Sonic 3D Blast can be part of the timeline. You can throw in the second Sonic Drift if you want to be cheeky. But Sonic 4 needs to take place after Sonic Pocket Adventure, since that game shows how Eggman changed his clothes.

So if you wanted to glue a timeline together...

Tails' Adventures --> Sonic the Hedgehog --> Sonic CD --> Sonic 2 --> Sonic 3 --> Sonic & Knuckles --> Chaotix --> 3D Blast --> Fighters -- R --> Pocket Adventure --> Sonic 4 --> Sonic Adventure

SegaSonic Arcade can take place before or after the original Sonic (I go back and forth on this, since it's kinda neat to think of it as a prequel since no Chaos Emeralds are involved, but at the same time I don't want too much of Sonic's past to ever be seen in game form), either/both Drift games could be slotted in between S&K and R (though I guess the second would take place sometime after Chaotix, if we're really dealing with them), and Mania...well, we'll have to see, I guess. Though the safe bet would be between S3&K and Pocket Adventure.

Also: the logic of the Sonic universe breaks if there are multiple sets of Chaos Emeralds post-S&K. You can make Fighters work if you say "oh maybe one of them was a fake emerald prototype tails worked on or the master emerald was involved or something. Why can't Classic Sonic from Generations just be post Sonic? Boobowski is canon in our hearts. And Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 takes place during Sonic Adventure 2, of course.

lol canon

#20 User is offline Chaos Rush 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:36 PM

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I like how this thread acts as an accurate representation of the Sonic the Hedgehog series canon: a bunch of nonsense.

#21 User is offline Jmtshaw 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 04:37 PM

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You're right - Metal Sonic's not a flawless argument because Fighters and R cause problems. Those can be considered to be on the same level as Mario Kart in canon though, so it's not too big a deal.

I don't think Metal Sonic not having a fight with Sonic is a way of saying he's inferior to Mecha Sonic - the attacks Metal Sonic does have (a boost and a shield) are a lot more advanced than what Mecha is shown with. Mecha Sonic also needs to wait a lot of time before actually attacking and it leaves him open to attacks, yet Metal Sonic doesn't need to do anything of the sort and can actually attack while moving.
If the Mecha Sonic in Death Egg Zone was just an improvisation or a way to stall Sonic, why is Eggman watching the fight just outside the room when he has that really big Death Egg Robot sitting in the back?

Quote

It makes sense if you consider Eggman building all 3 at the same time. He started off with Metal, finished him, deployed him, and then continued on Silver and Mecha. After Metal was destroyed, he deployed Silver (not quite near the final stage) and rushed to finish Mecha. When he crashed down on Angel Island, he deployed Mecha to stall Sonic before he reached the Death Egg, using prototypes of old tech. No matter how you view Sonic CD, Mecha being a total downgrade of Silver, and requiring Eggman's old machines to properly fight Sonic doesn't make any sense either. Also, we're never told how much time passed between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. We know that Sonic was on a "break" on West Side Island, but again, we don't know how long that "break" was. I will agree that the time between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 is a week at most. There's no way Sonic wouldn't pounce on the opportunity to take down Eggman once and for all. As for trying to incorporate Triple Trouble, well that's where things get hairy again. Knuckles was clearly won over by Eggman sometime after Sonic Chaos, given that you fight Knux in what is obviously an Eggman vehicle, so either he didn't learn his lesson from letting Eggman help him in Sonic 3, or he's fucking stupid in letting Eggman trick him again in Sonic 3.
No it doesn't. That means he created the smaller and more advanced Metal Sonic and two big clunky Mecha Sonics - that's like a PS4 and two Ataris.
The Mecha Sonic in 3K you could definitely argue for being a prototype though, considering it's thrown in with a bunch of old machines and left behind after the events of the game.

I really like the idea of Eggman slowly getting closer to his own robot Sonic as the Classic series goes down, going from a loud and simplistic S2 Mecha Sonic to a robot that's even capable of emulating Sonic's finger-wagging. I think the the Death Egg plot fits perfectly as being the point that made the world first notice Sonic as a hero, which attracts Amy to him and in turn allow Sonic CD to happen. There's a kid in Station Square who talks about Sonic saving the world, as well as asking about Angel Island - which was somewhat of a legend up until S3K (and still generally unknown considering the Mystic Ruins guys didn't know what it was).

Just because Tails wasn't in Sonic CD doesn't mean that it has to be set before Sonic meets him - By that logic, CD has to come before Sonic 1 because Eggman isn't using Animals to power his robots.

#22 User is offline Misinko 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:36 PM

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View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

No it doesn't. That means he created the smaller and more advanced Metal Sonic and two big clunky Mecha Sonics - that's like a PS4 and two Ataris.
The Mecha Sonic in 3K you could definitely argue for being a prototype though, considering it's thrown in with a bunch of old machines and left behind after the events of the game.


He could've intended all 3 to work together in tangent. None of the trio serve every purpose perfectly. Silver is pure power, Metal is pure speed, and Mecha appears to be somewhere in between, given his slim frame, but large stature. If they were all deployed at once, there's no way Sonic would've been able to tackle them all.

View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just because Tails wasn't in Sonic CD doesn't mean that it has to be set before Sonic meets him - By that logic, CD has to come before Sonic 1 because Eggman isn't using Animals to power his robots.


Eggman really didn't get into the spin of powering his robots with alternative methods until after Adventure 1 though. I see your point. But at the same time, it wouldn't make sense for Tails to just up and desert his idol after going on a grand adventure with him. It makes more sense for him to have gone off and done his own thing before Adventure, seeing as its stated that a good chunk of time has passed between it and the previous game, But CD is implied to have taken place within a couple months after the last game. So Sonic sees a giant metal contraption enclosing on the Little Planet, and he doesn't even think to call up his best friend to help him out? That doesn't make any sense.

Plus, there's the Tails photo introducing his appearance in Sonic 2, which could point to Sonic CD taking place before Sonic 2 if you wanna stretch things.

#23 User is offline Titan 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:06 PM

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For those trying to make sense of Triple Trouble and Knuckles's alignment in that game: it just seems easier to assume the 8-bit games take place in their own alternate timeline, IMO. (Which also handily explains why there's only ever 6 emeralds in those games)

#24 User is offline big smile 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 04:27 AM

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It's not too hard to include the Game Gear games into the main timeline. However, Iizuka was quite dismissive about including the series in Sonic Generations, which suggests that he doesn't consider them as part of the series.

They Game Gear games also had no involvement from Sonic Team (even spin offs such as Sonic R and Sonic Shuffle had some Sonic Team involvement).
This post has been edited by big smile: 15 March 2017 - 04:28 AM

#25 User is offline DerZocker 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:11 AM

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Quote

Can you discuss what systems will be represented on the 3DS version such as Game Gear?

Game Gear? (Laughter) No. For the 3DS we wanted to go with systems of more recent memory. So we are more focused on levels from the GBA and DS.


Oh my... that quote :v: I start to remember this interview again. Bet he was just was just salty, cuz his GG had rotten caps

Anyway, I just miss the time when all I had to do to fill my demand for story, was reading StC. I never even tried to make sense of what Sega came up with since Adventure, and wel...l my sanity's greatly thankful for that. It's like Sega looked at Archie and StC and thought "So much convoluted plot nonsense, so many useless side characters, we want a piece of that cake!!"
Usually the simpler they stay, the better

View PostTimmiT, on 14 March 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:



I can live with that, though xD

#26 User is offline Jmtshaw 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:23 AM

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View PostEpicElijahSpeedy, on 14 March 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

He could've intended all 3 to work together in tangent. None of the trio serve every purpose perfectly. Silver is pure power, Metal is pure speed, and Mecha appears to be somewhere in between, given his slim frame, but large stature. If they were all deployed at once, there's no way Sonic would've been able to tackle them all.
Sonic CD's manual describes Metal Sonic as Eggman's "ultimate robot".
"The ultimate robot built by Eggman. His abilities are the same as Sonic's, and what's more, he can put out speeds faster than Sonic in an instant. Aligned with Eggman's intentions, he regards Sonic as an enemy."
He's pretty much Dark Link for Sonic, he's clearly more powerful than the Mecha Sonics you see in 2 and 3. Having him alongside the Mecha Sonics doesn't make sense - that's like, Gamma's story from Adventure 1 except having his E-series brothers be Kikis and Buzzbombers. We already know that the first Mecha Sonic at least wasn't just some throwaway robot judging by how Eggman was sitting in the next room watching the fight. If you want my take on that, I'd say he's studying Sonic's abilities for his work on Metal Sonic.

View PostEpicElijahSpeedy, on 14 March 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

Eggman really didn't get into the spin of powering his robots with alternative methods until after Adventure 1 though. I see your point. But at the same time, it wouldn't make sense for Tails to just up and desert his idol after going on a grand adventure with him. It makes more sense for him to have gone off and done his own thing before Adventure, seeing as its stated that a good chunk of time has passed between it and the previous game, But CD is implied to have taken place within a couple months after the last game. So Sonic sees a giant metal contraption enclosing on the Little Planet, and he doesn't even think to call up his best friend to help him out? That doesn't make any sense.

Plus, there's the Tails photo introducing his appearance in Sonic 2, which could point to Sonic CD taking place before Sonic 2 if you wanna stretch things.
Regarding Eggman's machines it's actually the opposite - according to Sonic 1's manual he used alternative methods first and didn't use animals until Sonic 1 to power his machines.
"Have you seen it, Sonic? This time is going to be different! Because this time, I've turned all the animals on the island into robots!"

I don't think the pictures from Sonic CD's sound test are canon, considering they include Sonic rapping with Eggman and a Batman reference. Plus, the Tails photo isn't for Sonic 2 - it's for Sonic Drift.
There's also the fact that Sonic was going to Little Planet just so he could watch the planet appear, not because he knew Eggman was up to no good there. I don't think he would've had time to call Tails and wait for him to get there. As for Sonic leaving Tails, that's exactly what happens in Sonic 4 - he leaves Tails to go explore new places, and has more than enough time to go see Little Planet before he ages up to his Modern appearance.

#27 User is offline Misinko 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:17 AM

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Fair enough. Can't really argue any more outside of the Spindash, and the lack of the Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic, but both could easily be explained away with speculation. I dunno why, but CD taking place before Sonic 2 just seems more appealing to me.

#28 User is offline big smile 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:42 AM

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I think there's an interview with Oshima where he says he made Sonic CD as a new version of Sonic 1, so it's probably safe to assume that it was intended to take place after Sonic 1.

Eggman has both Metal and Mecha Sonic in his Egg base in Sonic Adventure, so he probably regards them as equals (assuming that second bot is Mecha Sonic, as he looks very different). Eggman also deploys Mecha Sonic in Pocket Sonic Adventure, which further weakens the argument about him not wanting to use Mecha after creating Metal. (In parallel, Mecha Knuckles came after Metal Knuckles).

#29 User is offline Jmtshaw 

Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:30 AM

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Pocket Adventure, if anything, is more the 8-bit parent of Sonic 4 and Generations. It has a lot of references to other games in it, including the Knuckles Hidden Palace Zone fight and the game's many stages. It's also kind of hard to place too - the Tornado has its Modern design in Pocket Adventure, despite 4 using the Classic version. Depending on whether you're on the side of Eggman's clothes or the Tornado's design, it can take place either side of 4.

In that game, Metal would've either still been stuck on Little Planet at the time or broken after the events of 4, so it's not like Eggman could use him. If you can say Sonic 3 Mecha was a robot thrown out there to hold back Sonic, you can say the same thing for the robot that shows up there too. Considering the game's final boss looks like a modified version of the Death Egg Robot and Eggman is known to reuse old machines in other games, it's not outlandish to say he'd use a Mecha Sonic model lying around. Since he's not paying any attention to the Sonic robot in that game, we don't have to worry about what Eggman expects the outcome of the fight to be.

Th Mecha Sonic robot seen in Sonic Adventure can't be the same one as Sonic 2 or 3k's, considering Sonic and Knuckles destroyed those ones respectively - it has to be a different robot entirely. Eggman never actually uses this random robot Sonic sitting in his base, so it can't be a finished product either (And if you ask me it looks more like Modern Sonic than Classic Sonic, but you could just put that down to design changes). What we do know though is that after Sonic 4, Metal Sonic was largely forgotten about by Eggman until the robot himself started going on a rampage in Heroes (Not counting bonus modes), so my explanation would just be that it's just some old thing he's kept around there.

We could go even further and look at Eggman's work on other character robots - particularly Mecha Knuckles and Shadow Androids. Both look exactly like the character they're based off (In Mecha Knuckles' case, at least until his real body's exposed), and don't happen to be twice the size of those characters either. If we go along with Eggman viewing both Metal and Mecha Sonic as failed products, we can say that Eggman could have just been working on a version of that for Sonic, which may have been stopped either when Metal Sonic went on a rampage or his interest in Shadow caused him to work on developing the androids instead. I don't think Metal Sonic makes any canon appearances after Heroes, but if he ever does the argument would just be that the events of Heroes redeemed Metal Sonic's power.

I can certainly see the arguments for CD being before Sonic 2. I just think that you can expand on so much more by placing it after 3K.

(Also, sorry 'bout all the rambling. I'm a nut for this kind of stuff :v:/> )

#30 User is offline qwertysonic 

Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:26 AM

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I always tended to put CD after S&K because of the OVA. I considered the OVA to be a move version of Sonic CD and in it Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are already friends. Also Metal Sonic appears again and S&K Mecha does not. Also In Sonic Adventure even Silver sonic is seen again with Metal Sonic.
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