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What is a story but a miserable pile of etc etc etc

#1 User is offline Roller 

Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:13 PM

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When it comes to Sonic I didn't think I've cared about story in the series for a long time, but recently rediscovered notes about a weird theory I put on the internet a while back. This reminder awoke something primal I didn't know I still had in me, and promptly spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to graph how the theory might be applied in practice. Here's your "helpful" guide to Sonic. This isn't intended to be taken completely seriously, but it IS an exercise in how much things can be tied together from someone who thought they were over being extremely wound up about this kind of stuff.

I'm interested in reading you guys' thoughts - whether they're on this diagram that I've probably made some obvious mistake in, or about how other people have tried (and embarassed themselves trying) to tie things together. Whether you once really cared about stuff like that, or whether it's the sort of thing you spend your Friday nights doing to this very day - it's all good. And by good, I mean bad. But the good, self-indulgent kind of bad, obviously.

#2 User is offline Mr Lange 

Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:31 PM

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So let me get this straight.

Sonic Runners - canon
Sonic Jump/Dash - not canon

Sonic and All Stars Racing - canon
Sonic Drift 1 and 2 - not canon

Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine - canon
Sonic R - not canon

Sonic Boom SC - canon
Sonic Boom RoL - not canon

Yeah okay.

#3 User is offline Atendega 

Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:49 PM

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I don't know why anyone needs a guide for this shit. Just take anything that fits with everything else in the order it was released. It's not that hard to forgive little inconsistencies or whatever.

This is amusing though :v:
This post has been edited by Atendega: 13 March 2017 - 08:50 PM

#4 User is offline Shakidna 

Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:56 PM

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Not-destroyed moon? Not canon.

#5 User is offline BlackHole 

Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:58 PM

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I remember this, I was the one who noted the Elise emerald being the missing 7th one in the first cycle.

#6 User is offline Misinko 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:06 AM

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View PostAtendega, on 13 March 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

I don't know why anyone needs a guide for this shit. Just take anything that fits with everything else in the order it was released. It's not that hard to forgive little inconsistencies or whatever.


The inconsistencies are absolutely gigantic though. We're not talking about little gaps here and there, we're talking gaping inconsistencies, especially when you try to factor the handheld games into the mix. There's maybe 3 games that could properly fit into the Sonic timeline (Pocket Adventure and the first two Advanced Games). The rest? Forget it. Then there's the issues going into the main line of games, the biggest being Sonic CD's placement. The Sonic timeline unfortunately cannot fit every game in it without drastically altering their plots.


View PostBlackHole, on 13 March 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

I remember this, I was the one who noted the Elise emerald being the missing 7th one in the first cycle.


That'd work if it weren't for the fact that the blue Chaos Emerald Silver gave to Elise

Posted Image

didn't also exist in Triple Trouble.

Posted Image
This post has been edited by EpicElijahSpeedy: 14 March 2017 - 08:25 AM

#7 User is online DigitalDuck 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:39 AM

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I still say there are multiple sets of Chaos Emeralds and different locations have different sets.

#8 User is offline Misinko 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:00 AM

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That makes the most sense gameplay wise, but there's still some underlying issues there. Such as West Side Island's set somehow totally changing shape and size in between 2 and 3 (they're gigantic in 2, and tiny in 3 when Knux punches him), and how the sets between the Adventure Games and Heroes looking roughly the same despite obviously being in two entirely separate areas. For the former, you could say that Sonic went back to South Island to get their set before heading off to Angel Island, but why would he do that, and where was the 7th Emerald in Sonic 1?

This is why trying to piece together Sonic's plot is foolhardy. You can do it, but it's in the same respect as being able to glue a jigsaw puzzle together.
This post has been edited by EpicElijahSpeedy: 14 March 2017 - 09:01 AM

#9 User is offline TimmiT 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:09 AM

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View PostShakidna, on 13 March 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

Not-destroyed moon? Not canon.

Nah, the moon is still destroyed, you just see the not-destroyed side of it. :v:

#10 User is online DigitalDuck 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:14 AM

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View PostEpicElijahSpeedy, on 14 March 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

That makes the most sense gameplay wise, but there's still some underlying issues there. Such as West Side Island's set somehow totally changing shape and size in between 2 and 3 (they're gigantic in 2, and tiny in 3 when Knux punches him), and how the sets between the Adventure Games and Heroes looking roughly the same despite obviously being in two entirely separate areas. For the former, you could say that Sonic went back to South Island to get their set before heading off to Angel Island, but why would he do that, and where was the 7th Emerald in Sonic 1?


Nah, they're not gigantic in 2. Sonic and Tails just shrink when they enter the special stage, because they have to fit through that ring portal above the checkpoint. :v:

If you're going to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all the same set" theory, why is it not okay to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all different sets" theory? Maybe all emeralds look the same, they just change from game to game because SEGA couldn't decide on a consistent look until Sonic Adventure.

#11 User is offline TimmiT 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:19 AM

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Posted Image
https://twitter.com/...021227162619906

I like this one better

#12 User is online Dark Sonic 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:24 AM

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Did Sonic 1 Sonic get sent to the future in Generations, or did Sonic & Knuckles Sonic get sent over? He knows Tails and Robotnik, but he's running through GHZ.

Maybe he's just going for a jog.

#13 User is online Jmtshaw 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:45 AM

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I think other than Battle having Shadow in it the post-Adventure timeline is pretty straight forward. You might argue Riders for an AU or something, but it's pretty basic considering how much of a mess putting all Classic Sonic's games into a timeline is.

I can't get behind CD being before 2/3k because it doesn't make sense to me that Eggman would build Metal Sonic first and then the much crappier Mecha Sonics afterwards. Putting CD between the two (release order) doesn't work either because the time between 2/3 really small (a few days) and Eggman was on Angel Island the entire time with a broken Death Egg. Knuckles also shows up alongside Metal Sonic in Chaotix and Triple Trouble, which doesn't work after 4's retcon to have Metal stuck on little planet between CD/4.

View PostDigitalDuck, on 14 March 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

I still say there are multiple sets of Chaos Emeralds and different locations have different sets.

I'd say this is the case for the South Island set (6 Emeralds), because the manuals for Sonic 1 and Sonic Chaos state that South Island goes to shit when the Emeralds aren't there.
For the stuff about the Emeralds' shape, the closest I've seen to modern chaos emeralds in the classic games is the super emeralds, which are the Sonic 2 set carried over into 3k. Of course, "Muh Hyper Sonic isn't canon", but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.

#14 User is offline Misinko 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:45 AM

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View PostDigitalDuck, on 14 March 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

View PostEpicElijahSpeedy, on 14 March 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

That makes the most sense gameplay wise, but there's still some underlying issues there. Such as West Side Island's set somehow totally changing shape and size in between 2 and 3 (they're gigantic in 2, and tiny in 3 when Knux punches him), and how the sets between the Adventure Games and Heroes looking roughly the same despite obviously being in two entirely separate areas. For the former, you could say that Sonic went back to South Island to get their set before heading off to Angel Island, but why would he do that, and where was the 7th Emerald in Sonic 1?


Nah, they're not gigantic in 2. Sonic and Tails just shrink when they enter the special stage, because they have to fit through that ring portal above the checkpoint. :v:/>/>/>/>

If you're going to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all the same set" theory, why is it not okay to retcon the looks of the emeralds under the "they're all different sets" theory? Maybe all emeralds look the same, they just change from game to game because SEGA couldn't decide on a consistent look until Sonic Adventure.


Because they still tear massive holes in the game's logic. Especially when it comes to SA2 and the Eclipse Canon. If there's multiple sets, why'd Shadow need to hop around from place to place, stealing the Emeralds instead of just going to some other area, dashing through the special stages, and nabbing the Emeralds? Why did Eggman need to wait until Tails boarded the ARK before he could nab a seventh emerald? Why did Shadow not find an Emerald and keep it on him at all times to keep his power flowing? And then going back to the original games, why did Eggman only search South Island for the Emeralds instead of putting together a world-wide taskforce? Why didn't he take the ones easily found wherever Station Square is? And then why didn't he go back to find them later on while Sonic was busy dealing with Chaos and his other creations in the modern games? Having multiple sets explains some questions, but it also leaves other unanswered.

EDIT: And I just remembered Unleashed, which further tears the theory. Why did Sonic need to go from Temple to Temple, restoring the continents by restoring each Emerald, instead of just hopping into the Special Stages, nabbing a set of 7, and then restoring the world that way? Why would only restoring the one set turn the planet right again if there's multiple out there? Which set did Sonic use to turn Super Sonic? Why are there multiple temples only sporting one Emerald Slot if there's multiple sets for every region? Why aren't there more temples scattered across the globe that can also restore Emeralds? If there are, why didn't the Professor mention the more easily found ones? Why wasn't Eggman trying to guard each individual temple?

This is why I prefer one set. It's simple, and makes things easier to explain.

View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

I can't get behind CD being before 2/3k because it doesn't make sense to me that Eggman would build Metal Sonic first and then the much crappier Mecha Sonics afterwards. Putting CD between the two (release order) doesn't work either because the time between 2/3 really small (a few days) and Eggman was on Angel Island the entire time with a broken Death Egg. Knuckles also shows up alongside Metal Sonic in Chaotix and Triple Trouble, which doesn't work after 4's retcon to have Metal stuck on little planet between CD/4.


It makes sense if you consider Eggman building all 3 at the same time. He started off with Metal, finished him, deployed him, and then continued on Silver and Mecha. After Metal was destroyed, he deployed Silver (not quite near the final stage) and rushed to finish Mecha. When he crashed down on Angel Island, he deployed Mecha to stall Sonic before he reached the Death Egg, using prototypes of old tech. No matter how you view Sonic CD, Mecha being a total downgrade of Silver, and requiring Eggman's old machines to properly fight Sonic doesn't make any sense either. Also, we're never told how much time passed between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. We know that Sonic was on a "break" on West Side Island, but again, we don't know how long that "break" was. I will agree that the time between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 is a week at most. There's no way Sonic wouldn't pounce on the opportunity to take down Eggman once and for all. As for trying to incorporate Triple Trouble, well that's where things get hairy again. Knuckles was clearly won over by Eggman sometime after Sonic Chaos, given that you fight Knux in what is obviously an Eggman vehicle, so either he didn't learn his lesson from letting Eggman help him in Sonic 3, or he's fucking stupid in letting Eggman trick him again in Sonic 3.

View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

I'd say this is the case for the South Island set (6 Emeralds), because the manuals for Sonic 1 and Sonic Chaos state that South Island goes to shit when the Emeralds aren't there.


None of the Japanese Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 8-bit manuals make mention of South Island going to hell if all the Emeralds aren't there. Chaos briefly mentions it with the island sinking, but then it's retconned in Triple Trouble as Eggman has one Emerald, and no mention of the Island going haywire is present.
This post has been edited by EpicElijahSpeedy: 14 March 2017 - 10:54 AM

#15 User is online DigitalDuck 

Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:48 AM

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View PostJmtshaw, on 14 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

I can't get behind CD being before 2/3k because it doesn't make sense to me that Eggman would build Metal Sonic first and then the much crappier Mecha Sonics afterwards. Putting CD between the two (release order) doesn't work either because the time between 2/3 really small (a few days) and Eggman was on Angel Island the entire time with a broken Death Egg. Knuckles also shows up alongside Metal Sonic in Chaotix and Triple Trouble, which doesn't work after 4's retcon to have Metal stuck on little planet between CD/4.


Well, a few days (was it days? I thought it was a few weeks, but it's irrelevant either way) is long enough to have an adventure, but not with Eggman making an appearance. Sonic 4 essentially has to take place immediately after Sonic CD, and it makes sense that CD takes place after 3 because of Metal Sonic; it's also implied that CD is Sonic's first encounter with Metal Sonic, which would mean Triple Trouble must take place sometime after CD and 4. Chaotix should come sometime after that because of Metal Sonic's increase in power, and Heroes at some point further in the future with both a more advanced Metal Sonic and the return of the Chaotix.

Tails' own games could take place either before Sonic 2, or between Sonic 3 and Sonic 4; I always picture Sonic 1 8-bit and Sonic 1 16-bit as being two different tellings of the same story; Sonic 2 8-bit and Sonic Chaos would probably take place before Sonic 2 16-bit; nobody gives a shit about Sonic Blast or Sonic 3D, and of course Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 takes place after Sonic Heroes.

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