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Games that featured the Sonic CD Opening & Ending

#16 User is offline Windii 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:08 AM

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I did encode these from SFD to MP4, simply because some people have stated that they had problems with playing SFD files for whatever reason. All the problems you mentioned on these videos are the source's problem, not because I encoded/ripped these badly. I could also make Mega Collection rips if you're curious. I doubt they're any better aside from the ending being slower though.

I'm unfortunately not very video restoration literate so I have no idea how to remove the artifacts in these videos in a way that won't hurt the picture/animation too much and blurring it to the point of being all smudgy and blended. The joys of trying to fix 90s anime footage with no original cels or materials at hand lmao.
This post has been edited by Windii: 10 March 2017 - 06:28 AM

#17 User is offline Flygon 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 06:01 AM

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Going to ask the very dumb question. Made even dumber, because, as an artist, I mostly work in inking and colouring.

How laboursome is it to re-draw the frames? How many are there?

Of course, this would require a team of artists, good organization in the community, and making sure nobody screws the artistic consistency up. But it would seem to be a way to help get a HD restoration and work around the blending issue. Or, much more likely, just a restoration of the frames that are unable to be automatically restored.

But, having spent two whole weeks trying to colourize a single animation loop, I know just how impractical such an idea is. As utterly kickass as it would be.

It'd be cool as hell to crunch the math, however.
This post has been edited by Flygon: 10 March 2017 - 06:04 AM

#18 User is online Master Emerald 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:48 AM

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The opening is a 90-second long video, at 24fps we have about... 2.160 frames?

That can be reduced by using a big background and moving the layers, though.
This post has been edited by Master Emerald: 10 March 2017 - 09:49 AM

#19 User is offline Andrew75 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:05 AM

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View PostFlygon, on 10 March 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

Going to ask the very dumb question. Made even dumber, because, as an artist, I mostly work in inking and colouring.

How laboursome is it to re-draw the frames? How many are there?

Of course, this would require a team of artists, good organization in the community, and making sure nobody screws the artistic consistency up. But it would seem to be a way to help get a HD restoration and work around the blending issue. Or, much more likely, just a restoration of the frames that are unable to be automatically restored.

But, having spent two whole weeks trying to colourize a single animation loop, I know just how impractical such an idea is. As utterly kickass as it would be.

It'd be cool as hell to crunch the math, however.

I say go for it ! But only as long as you have fun with it and don't rush yourself, I know doing something like this would take a lot of time, energy and dedication, ( mostly dedication) and As you progress, I'm sure you'd get faster.
I've Been working on 1 project for 11 years now, and I'm still going. It's good to pace yourself. And I'm sure even without a team of artists youd be able to pull it off.
not every frame has sonic in it.
This post has been edited by Andrew75: 10 March 2017 - 10:07 AM

#20 User is online SonicGenesis89 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

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To redraw every single frame of animation would be a lot of hard work and would take a lot of time and dedication. It's definitely possible but it will be very time consuming. You'll be practically reanimating the entire opening and ending cutscenes. If you or a team of dedicated artists decided to restore the opening and ending animation it would be really cool to also restore some of the lost scenes in it as well.

In the Mega CD / Sega CD version of the opening there's a scene that shows Little Planet and then the camera pans down to the chain and then onto the Eggman rock. In the regular animated opening this scene is played in reverse and doesn't show the Eggman rock.

Another difference is in the ending cutscene for the Sega CD / Mega CD version there's additional animation with Amy Rose. After Sonic puts her down, he runs away and there is a few extra frames of animation for the dust from Sonic as he ran and Amy as she looks to where Sonic had once been standing and blinks a few times. In the regular version of this scene you never see her blink and the additional animation of the dust is also lost. Instead of showing her blinking and the dust moving the scene is abruptly cut as Amy looks up from her hands.

I don't know why there is differences like this between the regular animation and the Mega CD / Sega CD version. It makes me wonder if the Mega CD / Sega CD version is the more finished version of the opening and ending cutscenes.
This post has been edited by SonicGenesis89: 10 March 2017 - 10:25 AM

#21 User is offline Ayu Tsukimiya 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:10 PM

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View PostSonicGenesis89, on 10 March 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

I don't know why there is differences like this between the regular animation and the Mega CD / Sega CD version. It makes me wonder if the Mega CD / Sega CD version is the more finished version of the opening and ending cutscenes.


Not positive on this, but I think some shots like that were done digitally, like the part showing the mountain with Eggman's face.

When you look closely at most cuts from the ending sequence on the Mega CD version, there's almost no weird coloration issues from compression like with the opening. That, and the backgrounds and certain shots (like the close up of Metal Sonic's face with his properly colored red eyes when he flies towards the screen) look suspiciously pixel art-ish. I'm guessing that they originally drew those shots digitally, then went back and did them with cel animation for the PC version or something. Or maybe it's the Mega CD version that was redrawn. Either way, it's definitely different footage we're looking at in those few sequences.

What I don't understand is why Sega doesn't just remaster the footage using the original film negatives if they still exist. A good, careful job won't result in any frame blending.
This post has been edited by Ayu Tsukimiya: 12 March 2017 - 06:48 PM

#22 User is online Master Emerald 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:38 PM

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Quote

I'm guessing that they originally drew those shots digitally, then went back and did them with cel animation for the PC version or something.


The Cel-based version was made even before Sonic CD was ready. The MCD version was redrawn, for sure.

#23 User is offline RGX 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:32 PM

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View PostFlygon, on 10 March 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

Going to ask the very dumb question. Made even dumber, because, as an artist, I mostly work in inking and colouring.

How laboursome is it to re-draw the frames?


As a giant obsessed Sonic CD Fanaticc someone who fiddled with redrawing the frames or editing them. I can personally say the process is really time consuming and tedious.

I posted it in another topic, but I attempted reanimating Amy's skirt from the SEGA CD version using GEMS collection footage(its the bonus video):
Posted Image

I even tried to see what restored frames would look like while also painting new pieces of the background to make the cutscene 16:9 aspect ratio (I know its not the greatest thing, I was just messing with it)
Posted Image

What I noticed is that simply redrawing the frames while leaving the background intact gives off the whole DBZKai look where new animation just sticks out like a sore thumb. To make new art mesh well with the original footage would take plenty of blurring and obscuring. Matching the film grain & pixelation from compression was also an issue for me. It's not an easy task. It would probably just be better to reanimate the whole thing for consistency's sake (but that's a nightmare for one person to do).

I still want to tackle editing the gems footage some day and just edit out the blended frames & restore lost frames (instead of animating the whole thing all over again), but again, it's not easy.
This post has been edited by RGX: 10 March 2017 - 11:54 PM

#24 User is offline Flygon 

Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:51 PM

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Yeah, so I feared. Restoring individual problem frames would stick out like a sore thumb. And I know from experience that it's just too time consuming to redraw the whole thing from scratch. :(

It was worth asking, though!

#25 User is offline Kushami 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 01:57 AM

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I'm pretty certain they did the cel animation first, digitized it in some manner, and then spent time cleaning it up and adding those missing flourishes. If you notice, the way it's animated in the original captures used on SMC/Gems the colors are very very very flat so that when the colors are dropped down to the Sega CD 16 color palette (or whatever it- it's limited) it's not affected as much. I imagine they found a way to digitize it, and then from there cleaned it up and customized it for the best visuals. If you look at it, it's very obvious the backgrounds are dithered by some algorithm in the Sega CD version, because it's not dithered in a way a human artist would do but gives off the shape of how a computer would do it. The way things are aliases aren't a normal way an artist would draw outlines, etc.

These videos were originally animated on cels, which means the original framerate was likely 24fps and not 30 like on these videos on Gems/Mega Collection. The opening has almost all unique frames though, which means the frames were likely messed with/sped up somehow. I'm guessing to get it to sync up they just sped it up to 30. But the problem with this is at which point? Usually when you deinterlace 30fps material that is based on 24fps material, you get 4 unique frames and one duplicate. This pattern repeats. You then decimate it down to 24, which means it deletes that duplicate frame and brings it to 24fps.

Restoring individual problem frames isn't so bad if you know how many frames you have to fix, and then do it in the proper manner - which would mean blurring things out and using portions of the scene rather than drawing from scratch. Really, I need to look at the source to see how salvageable it is. I've had to recreate a bunch of missing scenes for official projects. We had to completely remake 10 missing frames from the Darkstalkers anime IIRC, for instance.

Windii, if you can actually send along the SFDs / source audio, I'd like to take a look at them. 100% on both.

Also, if someone has that 25th Anniversary DVD and doesn't mind ripping the vobs for the opening (or can point to where I can buy it), I'd appreciate it. The animation might be less messed with since it was transfered at DVD spec and not weird game spec.

(As a heads up, I own all these games - I'm just unsure how to rip properly from Gamecube games.)

Edit: BTW, RGX: I see what you did to cheat the smoke, but your re-animation otherwise is pretty spot on. Awesome job.

Edit 2:

Looks like even way back on the PC version there was bad frame blending on the ending. I dunno if it matches the blends on the others yet or not, but it seems they had trouble converting this even all those years back. Also of note is that the sequences are 15fps - half of the rate of others. Which makes sense at least, given video power at the time.

Posted Image
Posted Image
This post has been edited by Kushami: 12 March 2017 - 02:48 AM

#26 User is offline Casshern 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:51 AM

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View PostKushami, on 12 March 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

I'm pretty certain they did the cel animation first, digitized it in some manner, and then spent time cleaning it up and adding those missing flourishes. If you notice, the way it's animated in the original captures used on SMC/Gems the colors are very very very flat so that when the colors are dropped down to the Sega CD 16 color palette (or whatever it- it's limited) it's not affected as much. I imagine they found a way to digitize it, and then from there cleaned it up and customized it for the best visuals. If you look at it, it's very obvious the backgrounds are dithered by some algorithm in the Sega CD version, because it's not dithered in a way a human artist would do but gives off the shape of how a computer would do it. The way things are aliases aren't a normal way an artist would draw outlines, etc.

These videos were originally animated on cels, which means the original framerate was likely 24fps and not 30 like on these videos on Gems/Mega Collection. The opening has almost all unique frames though, which means the frames were likely messed with/sped up somehow. I'm guessing to get it to sync up they just sped it up to 30. But the problem with this is at which point? Usually when you deinterlace 30fps material that is based on 24fps material, you get 4 unique frames and one duplicate. This pattern repeats. You then decimate it down to 24, which means it deletes that duplicate frame and brings it to 24fps.

Restoring individual problem frames isn't so bad if you know how many frames you have to fix, and then do it in the proper manner - which would mean blurring things out and using portions of the scene rather than drawing from scratch. Really, I need to look at the source to see how salvageable it is. I've had to recreate a bunch of missing scenes for official projects. We had to completely remake 10 missing frames from the Darkstalkers anime IIRC, for instance.

Windii, if you can actually send along the SFDs / source audio, I'd like to take a look at them. 100% on both.

Also, if someone has that 25th Anniversary DVD and doesn't mind ripping the vobs for the opening (or can point to where I can buy it), I'd appreciate it. The animation might be less messed with since it was transfered at DVD spec and not weird game spec.

(As a heads up, I own all these games - I'm just unsure how to rip properly from Gamecube games.)

Edit: BTW, RGX: I see what you did to cheat the smoke, but your re-animation otherwise is pretty spot on. Awesome job.

Edit 2:

Looks like even way back on the PC version there was bad frame blending on the ending. I dunno if it matches the blends on the others yet or not, but it seems they had trouble converting this even all those years back. Also of note is that the sequences are 15fps - half of the rate of others. Which makes sense at least, given video power at the time.

Posted Image
Posted Image


I can get you the VOB files for the DVD if you tell me how to do it.

#27 User is offline Windii 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 06:29 AM

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Okay, here's the SFDs from Mega Collection and Gems. You can play them with MPC-HC and take screenshots, alter the aspect ratio and other neat stuff. They have ADX files placed as separate files in case you want them.

I do have the DVD and the VOB, but like... the VOB itself is 1 GB and contains a bunch of cinematics, including the opening at the very start. It's not split into parts or anything, so uh... How do I go about sending that? I can send it anyway but I may probably have no choice but to just encode the opening itself if you don't feel like downloading a 1 gig VOB with a bunch of irrelevant stuff.

As for the quality, it's actually not bad. Both Gems and Mega videos seem to have awkward stuff going on with blockiness and mosquito noise, but the DVD version largely doesn't seem to have that problem (or at least it's not quite as severe). I dare say it's probably the best quality of the OP by far, at least in terms of picture sharpness. It's no Blu-Ray or anything, but it'll have to do. The song is the version of Toot Toot Sonic Warrior heard in Sonic Jam with Keiko Utoku's different (I assume earlier because it has more awkward English enunciation going on) vocals.

Now I just wish the ending was treated just as well.
This post has been edited by Windii: 12 March 2017 - 06:30 AM

#28 User is offline RGX 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:32 AM

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View PostWindii, on 12 March 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

I may probably have no choice but to just encode the opening itself if you don't feel like downloading a 1 gig VOB with a bunch of irrelevant stuff.

The song is the version of Toot Toot Sonic Warrior heard in Sonic Jam with Keiko Utoku's different (I assume earlier because it has more awkward English enunciation going on) vocals.


If you don't mind taking the time to encode it yourself and sending it our way, that would be awesome, Windii! : )

As for the other themes, I can always just re-insert the other ones through MKVToolNixGUI. Like I did with the GEMs rips.
This post has been edited by RGX: 12 March 2017 - 10:37 AM

#29 User is offline Windii 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 01:10 PM

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Here's the encode from the DVD. For one thing it's not even interlaced so I didn't do anything except crop left and right sides to remove the black borders.

For another, here's my encode SA2 trailer that's also on the DVD as a bonus. It was made by Sonic Team way back in early June 2001 but the version they offered for download is in a crap resolution. This one has better quality, and at 60 FPS. It's neat.

EDIT: Okay I suck, those encodes had improper parameters and so they got audio sync issues. I updated the links with new versions encoded through Handbrake this time. Sorry.
This post has been edited by Windii: 12 March 2017 - 02:04 PM

#30 User is offline Kushami 

Posted 12 March 2017 - 08:25 PM

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If you can send the vob that's the best for me, even if it's an entire gig. I don't mind downloading 1gb. There are proper ways to extract the video, and having just the .vob is the best for me.

Thank you for the SFDs! Much much appreciated.

I need to compare but I think we can fix a bunch of things if we're creative.

RGX: If we can start getting stuff cleaned up, would you mind sharing your raw files for the Amy blink fix?

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