[Scarred Sun]

Front Page Comments are full of children. Let us discuss like adults.

[Guess Who]

The comment in this article that connected most with me is your statement that modern Sonic games are about "packaging a cool experience for you". Even in the classic games stages had setpieces, but by and large they were made by designing around the rules of the game. Loops are the obvious example; they're an enjoyable visual showcase of the game's physics while still leaving control entirely in the hands of the player. You had to have a certain amount of speed and momentum to go through (thus also making them admittedly easily-overcome obstacles) and you could stop dead or jump off at any time. Sonic 3 and Knuckles was their first major foray into scripted sequences - I personally found it pretty striking that Generations took the famous collapsing tower in Sky Sanctuary, which was previously totally automated, and kept the player in control. Yeah, taking control results in your death, but it's the principle of the thing.

But somewhere along the line the fundamental rules of the game changed. Sonic Adventure largely tried to adhere to the philosophy of the classics - you were in control during that entire whale chase, even if so much as jumping could kill you! - but laid the groundwork for further automation of the gameplay with the addition of frequent speed boosts and a level design philosophy that kept you propelled forward along a fairly set linear path. The small pieces of freedom - you cited Amy in Casinopolis - are really more the result of flaws in the game, unlike the classic games which had inherent flexibility in the game design.

Of course, the games developed further and further towards automation. In what is a complete perversion of the original game design, consider the loops in Sonic 2006 - whereas loops in the original game were a demonstration of the game's physics, loops in 2006 actually abandon the physics of the game completely and attach you to them regardless of momentum or gravity. The designers of the game want you to experience the spectacle of that loop, and if the game's physics don't allow it, well, fuck the rules!

Unleashed suffered from this as well. I've heard the Sonic stages compared to a rollercoaster, and I think it's a pretty fair analogy. The levels can be thrilling to watch, but not so much to play - the grind rail in Rooftop Run that descends from the clock tower and plunges you towards orange rooftops before spiralling away to safety is a thrill to experience, but during that time the game accepts no player input, not even to boost! The game doesn't attempt to offer any emergent gameplay - the designers crafted a very specific experience that they want you to go through.

But this trend towards linearity, packaged experiences, and scripted sequences is far from exclusive to the Sonic franchise. Many pinpoint those exact problems when remarking about the decline of the FPS genre. It's an industry wide issue with a number of causes. It's not 1992, and Yasuhara can't make a big sprawling level out of 128x128 tiles anymore. It takes a large coordinated effort by many people to make a single Unleashed stage, and just compiling the lighting takes days. Perhaps it's simply too much manpower to create more dynamic levels. Rooftop Run in Generations may have more branching paths than its Unleashed counterpart, but a single runthrough only takes about half as long (and you still can't boost on that rail!). Maybe it's a matter of meeting deadlines. Maybe the designers just aren't talented enough. Or maybe these crafted, static experiences are just the kind of game Sonic Team wants to make.

This post has been edited by Guess Who: 14 November 2011 - 11:34 PM

[JaxTH]

You actually can boost on the Unleashed rail as well as the Generations rail. You can only do it at a tiny part of the rail near the beginning though. I don't think either actually makes you go any faster though so it's pretty useless.

[Dark Sonic]

I say they just need to take the best of both worlds and combine them. Make Modern and Classic one in everything, movesets, character designs (Think Archie Genesis arc designs). I guess I'm pretty much saying go back to the Adventure Era but do a hell of a lot better this time. We can have a little bit of everything. Slow Sonic down a bit, give him a spin dash, the better jumping precision, replace sliding with rolling, keep the stomp and light speed dash and homing attack. And as far as level design is concerned take the 3D sections of Modern Sonic's levels and mix them with the 2D sections of Classic Sonic's levels (the 2D sections of Modern Sonic's levels are so un-organic and boring for the most part. Classic's are more fun).

I loved Generations since it involved two of my favorite gameplays in one game. Now just take the good of them and make it even more awesome. They did it once when they spawned the Unleashed formula now just do it again and come up with the Adventure formula with better level design and 2D/3D gameplay (I like the switching back and forth, it keeps things unique). Like Speed Highway and City Escape Generations are MUCH better then their Dreamcast counterparts, and I'm not just talking graphics here. I'm talking about the level designs actually being something that's not straight line zone the game (SA2 is more guilty of this then SA1 but still, SA1 felt very empty).

Oh and bring back items. If Generations has reminded us of anything, elemental shields are a blast. DO IT.

This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 14 November 2011 - 11:45 PM

[Guess Who]

JaxTH, on 14 November 2011 - 11:39 PM, said:

You actually can boost on the Unleashed rail as well as the Generations rail. You can only do it at a tiny part of the rail near the beginning though. I don't think either actually makes you go any faster though so it's pretty useless.

You can only do it at the very beginning because it's right before the trigger kicks in to take control away from you. My point still stands.

[TheKazeblade]

I've always believed a refined Adventure-style game with the elements added by the Unlea-Col-Erations formula would make for a good game. Good slow movement platforming, with 100% controllable high speed maneuvers with quick-step and drift. I think Boost could work in an adventure game too, but only in a way that you can only boost after you've hit a certain speed without it. I don't think it's good to be able to go 0-200 in X button flat. The current form of the boost could still be utilized in that it could be utilized if you get the speed shoe power-up, behaving like it does when you hit overdrive in Sonic Rush.

One thing that I think Generations made abundantly clear though, is that the 4th wall breaking humor is a little played out. I don't mind a lighthearted approach at all, but the thing is, light-hearted doesn't necessarily translate to every line is a joke. In the same vein, I don't mind a bare-bones story at all either. Problem is, there was no need for cutscenes in Generations. All they did was offer up jokes and painfully blatant points that people have pieced together, or have read on the back of the box. Lines like "We're traveling through time and space!" and all of the jokes pertaining to having two Sonics in the same place just don't work. If Sonic Team plans to use cutscenes, they should be used to further the plot in a meaningful way, or at least be a worthwhile reward for getting to a certain point in a game. How Colors and Generations handled them is a pet-peeve of mine, because it consists almost entirely of characters standing in one place talking.

What DID work were the word-less transitional cutscenes that took place before the Metal Sonic, Silver, Egg Robo, Perfect Chaos etc. battles. Sonic's actions speak for themselves and it brought back the coolness that I haven't seen from Sonic since before Sonic Adventure. I feel Sonic needs more action-based story telling, and much less dialogue, if any at all. Pantomime works well, as Classic Sonic showed. It lets Sonic have the capacity of being "cool" by just doing awesome moves and actions, and not fall into the pit of corny "trying to be cool" dialogue.

Design-wise, I would be excited for more of a Classic/Modern hybrid like that piece of pre-Adventure concept art that's been floating around, but I also don't mind it just keeping the modern flavor, it's grown on me.

I think it's time for them to re-introduce friends as playable characters; but maybe limiting it to Tails at first. I think that would be the best way to go about it. I hope they do, I miss playing as Tails in a legitimately fun way.

[Metal Man88]

The main issue that I see is that everyone's views are too wildly different.

There are many fans today who don't care for the classic games. Therefore even if they could magically be made that way, the problem is there are fans of the scripted sequences who will get upset if their sequences are taken away.

Similarly, some fans will become mad with the game if the 4th wall comedy goes away and the friends return.

The answer is that there is no solution. The best that can be made of this would be to make separate games appealing to separate portions of the fanbase which has splintered too far to be reunited, or to simply make compromises and stick to them instead of wildly changing every five years. It is trying to address these problems which is the problem itself—to try and address a problem that has no answer is to simply invite random game changes "because it will excite fans who didn't like the previous one!" Then, upon finding that some other group of fans dislikes that one, they lurch in the other direction.

[TheKazeblade]

Metal Man88, on 15 November 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:

The main issue that I see is that everyone's views are too wildly different.

There are many fans today who don't care for the classic games. Therefore even if they could magically be made that way, the problem is there are fans of the scripted sequences who will get upset if their sequences are taken away.

Similarly, some fans will become mad with the game if the 4th wall comedy goes away and the friends return.

The answer is that there is no solution. The best that can be made of this would be to make separate games appealing to separate portions of the fanbase which has splintered too far to be reunited, or to simply make compromises and stick to them instead of wildly changing every five years. It is trying to address these problems which is the problem itself—to try and address a problem that has no answer is to simply invite random game changes "because it will excite fans who didn't like the previous one!" Then, upon finding that some other group of fans dislikes that one, they lurch in the other direction.

In the end, personal tastes kind of take a back seat to whether or not the game is worth playing. I'd love for my personal tastes to be indulged in future installments of the franchise, but even though elements of Colors and Generations didn't strike a chord with me, it didn't cause me to dislike the gameplay, which at it's core was extremely fun and functional. Speaking for myself, personal tastes and the catering thereto would be icing on top of the cake, not a must have. I feel there are ways that the series can take steps to become more than it currently is. And as long as that core content and quality remains (one non-optional point of whether it is a good game), I think Sega should be willing to put fan gripe aside in order to make a better game. They've shown that they are willing to do this in the past with superfluous gimmicks that spoil, or at least delude it into something it's not in what would otherwise have been a dang fun game (Unleashed, for example) but now, I hope that they do the same thing, but in ways that will advance the core gameplay, not split it into an entirely different experience.

A major example of this is Sonic '06. The story was terrible, truly. But, I would have been willing to sort of overlook it had the gameplay been up to snuff. A lot of what we complain about is window dressing, and for those who take issue with the core gameplay in a way that it's a make or break deal whether or not they play it, perhaps a spin off would be appropriate, but the majority is okay with where the franchise is going, or at least it will make for a fun gameplay mechanic until Sega develops a better approach.

[Metal Man88]

Well, that is the problem. SEGA has to make compromises and focus on overall quality—but currently they're sort of still in "Let's try to appease a different part of the fanbase with each move" mode, so... the most I hope for is they simply split them up rather than keep lurching between attempts. Better to have many different games that appeal to different fans and yet are good in of themselves than previous wandering, lurching choices between each game.

Given the amount of red tape that any corporate product goes through, odds are it'll be a while before they realize that sticking to a consistently 'high quality' approach trumps swerving around with every game, though.

[Herm the Germ]

If we're talking character designs, I hope they keep them as they are now, just, nothin' wrong with that.

As far as gameplay is concerned, they seem to be on a good path. I didn't like Unleashed Daytime gameplay in it's first appearance, but Colors and, from what I can tell, Generations really evolved it positively, so, that's good.
Now to just adapt it so other characters are playable again, too…

Story-wise, I really wish Shiro Maekawa'd get to write a main game again, he's brought out some awesome scripts for the series, in my opinion.

[Aesculapius Piranha]

In my experience when a developer says they want to "appeal to the widest possible audience" they wind up shipping something so full of compromise that nobody is happy. Hopefully that won't be the case, but if this were groundhedgehog day, I would say that comment means that Sonic just saw his um... Shadow... and we are in for another few years of winter lame attempts at appealing to the lowest common denominator.

But as usual, my pessimism should be taken with a heaping helping of "I really really really hope I'm wrong."

[Kogen]

Herm the Germ, on 15 November 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

If we're talking character designs, I hope they keep them as they are now, just, nothin' wrong with that.

Nothin' wrong with boring, lifeless shite.

Quote

As far as gameplay is concerned, they seem to be on a good path. I didn't like Unleashed Daytime gameplay in it's first appearance, but Colors and, from what I can tell, Generations really evolved it positively, so, that's good.
Now to just adapt it so other characters are playable again, too…

7 out of 10 is really the goal to be striving for. It is not a place to say 'OK, I can still do better!', it is where you stop and say 'It is not absolute piss, so that's something.'

Sonic need only be a rip-off of Nintendo platformers made for 3 year olds and nothing more. Who cares about long established gameplay mechanics and artistic style. Originality is a bust.


Iizuka already stated that he is going to dump this 'modern Sonic' for something else. If that fellow can see that this is the correct thing to do, then anyone should be able to. I doubt he gives a flying schlitz whether anyone likes scripted sequences or not. Sonic Team had absolutely no issue with totally killing the mature, 'anime' Sonic all about Shadow the Hedgehog after Sonic 06. The fact that it had a large fan base meant nothing compared to them trying to appeal to a general audience. Too much value is put into 'they need to keep these fans, they are important!'. Just watch the Sonic G CE documentary to see how much they care about the years 2001 through 2010.

I am just hoping I finally get to play Sonic Badminton.

[Jason]

I'm actually quite satisfied for the most part with the current Modern Sonic gameplay. Generations has actually reintroduced alot of 3D platforming back into the gameplay. Colors practically never used any sort of 3D platforming, and reserved 3D for speedy quickstep/drift sections. As such, Generations actually feels closer to Sonic Adventure-esque level design since using this Modern formula, and I approve.

Personally, the real question becomes what to do with Classic Sonic, or at least Classic Sonic gameplay. Sonic 4 Episode 2 has a lot to prove, such as should I give a fuck after Episode 1 collectively pissed us off. My biggest gripe with Classic Sonic in Generations, outside of the physics issues (let's not have a big fight about that here), is the Homing-Attack-but-not level design. There is so much obvious staging of enemies just to be used as stepping stones as the only way to proceed to a higher path. It feels like Sega was simply going to use Sonic 4 Episode 1's engine, but changed their minds after all the flack they got for HA, and kept the HA sections in. It gets old really, really fast, because it doesn't feel fast. The Homing attack makes quick work out of stepping stone bots , which adds to the feeling of Modern Sonic being a much faster paced experience than Classic. Using enemies as stepping stones in Classic should be used as a shortcut through a level by avoiding platforming used by srs business speedrunners, not a means to get to another platform.

[Mr. Mash]

Metal Man88, on 15 November 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:

The main issue that I see is that everyone's views are too wildly different.

There are many fans today who don't care for the classic games. Therefore even if they could magically be made that way, the problem is there are fans of the scripted sequences who will get upset if their sequences are taken away.

Similarly, some fans will become mad with the game if the 4th wall comedy goes away and the friends return.

The answer is that there is no solution. The best that can be made of this would be to make separate games appealing to separate portions of the fanbase which has splintered too far to be reunited, or to simply make compromises and stick to them instead of wildly changing every five years. It is trying to address these problems which is the problem itself—to try and address a problem that has no answer is to simply invite random game changes "because it will excite fans who didn't like the previous one!" Then, upon finding that some other group of fans dislikes that one, they lurch in the other direction.

Are the majority of Sonic games bought by 'fans', or just kids and parents who want to get their kid a nice, fun colourful game?
I think maybe they should stop trying to appeal to fans, and go for a more general, wide market (it sounds like that's what they intend on doing anyway)

Kogen, on 15 November 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Herm the Germ, on 15 November 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

If we're talking character designs, I hope they keep them as they are now, just, nothin' wrong with that.

Nothin' wrong with boring, lifeless shite.

Do you like anything? Do you even know anything about character design?

[Rokkan]

You kinda went somewhere, but then completely deviated from the subject IMO. But then again, I skimmed a few paragraphs through. I'll take a slower read on it later.


What I feel about it is that the thing that modern Sonic games does is that it punishes players for trying, as you said so yourself, not play the game from ONE particular way the designer intended you to play. Any slight deviation from that punishes you with death or glitches, which punishes players for trying to be creative, not be completely straightforward, or merely having a slightly different mindset than the designer.

As of late, new Sonic games, like Sonic Unleashed, Colors and Generations, have been adding a whole lot more exploration and reward for players to explore (Medals, Red Rings), and getting cues and hints from how classic Sonic games have been designed and adapting that design to Modern Sonic's gameplay, but it's still straightforward, because for every path that you explore and are rewarded for exploring and being creative, there are three other paths that you try to explore and you die. Basically, they added exploration, but this exploration is still very limited, and once you do anything else a bit off from those limitations, you might die.

SEGA, dying is the ultimate punishment. If you do not want a player to jump off instead of hitting the spring to take you to another part of the level, why don't you just put a fucking invisible wall there. This is the biggest problem I've had with Generations. A player should die when he does not meet the minimum requirements for playing the level well (getting hit a lot, not being able to do simple jumps, not minding their environment - when said environment is clear to the player), not because he decided to jump in the middle of a loop or something.


Part of this is bad design, and part of this is because Sonic Team worries too much about making things look flashy and cool and too less about it working right in different conditions. Making things work in a variety of conditions by constructing levels based off what the physics and gameplay can do instead of adapting gameplay and control to fit parts of the level would be great and the best way to design a game, and would also allow players to see levels as a sandbox and test what can the physics of this game does and how do they work, and once they got a hold of "how this world works", they can play the game much more naturally and fluidly, being able to tackle new situations already having in mind what will probably happen if he does this or that in it, instead of just jumping blindly into it.


But we all know that SEGA doesn't want to do that, because it restricts the "cool things" that they can show to the player, but if you're not going to do that SEGA, why don't you just, after making those "cool sections" and designing stages, think about -every possibility- of what a player can do before and during each section? And to make sure to restrict what can the player do so that he doesn't kill himself off because he was just curious? Things like invisible walls and locking controls come up to mind. Generations' GHZ Act 1 "corkscrew loop" for instance, if you do anything else other than/or don't run on the ground, on a certain speed, keep holding forward and not doing anything else while you're in it, you're sure to glitch out that thing hella hard. Why didn't you just put an invisible wall before and after that section to force the player to be on the ground, and lock his controls while he's in it?



---


It's not really about making a game be easily "hackeable" or "glitcheable", because every designer avoids those situations, even on the classic games themselves, but it's about knowing all the possibilities that a player can explore and working how to make the game fair to the player, and acknowledge his actions by properly rewarding or punishing them. That way, the player can trust the fucking game and trust it to be fair, and not be on the constant lookout for when the game's gonna pull the carpet off his feet much like me and a lot of people here feel when they're playing modern Sonic games. Knowing all the possibilities that a player can do on a straightforward section, might also help you flesh out better that section and design parallel sections to that, like "oh, the player can jump here, so why don't we add a lower path here or a platform there for if he does that?"


EDIT: Oh okay, I took a slower read and now I get it, you were talking about what I talked about on the 5th paragraph, about making a solid gameplay and rules and exploring them with the levels, and was using things like our hacking community and debug mode as examples of the flexibility of the game, which I totes agree on. But I doubt that SEGA will do that, because as I said, restricts the cool cinematic stuff they can flash on you, and is also a lot of work. To me, the most important thing right now, is to make the player be able to play the game his own way without getting brutally punished by playing the game slightly differently than a straight-minded designer intended, and restrict certain things to make sure that happens.

This post has been edited by Rokkan: 15 November 2011 - 12:05 PM