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ArchangelUK Explains It All

#1 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:15 AM

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I'm not sure why people put stock in the wanted posters but not the "Charmy Bee's Honey" billboards, street signs for "E-123 Omega Street" or even the posters in SA2 that tell you not to turn off your Dreamcast.

#2 User is offline ArchangelUK 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:46 PM

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Urgh... that billboard. I cringed a bit when I saw that. It wasn't as originally intended, I assure you.

View Postbig smile, on 04 September 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

@ArchangelUK Thank you so much for clearing that up.

Out of interest could you share what you had on your list, it sounds interesting.

I always thought the "Missing since 1993" was very clever. I know some fans complained that it excluded Mighty's apperance in Chaotix, but I don't think that was the intention and it was worth it for the "joke".
It's nice to know that there were similar in-joke meanings with the wanted posters.

They were some of my favourite moments in the game, so thanks for including them.


Re list: Perfectly happy to... though this might require a different thread as we're kind veering off-topic? Feel free to yell, mods.

List Background: Long story after many years of frustrated yelling at SEGA the anniversary marked the point they finally came around to considering putting some more fanservice in Generations. This began with the levels which everyone voted on after I insisted that the internal vote being made was worthless as 90% of the people in the company probably couldn't name you any other level besides Green or Emerald Hill. I said we should go put it to the fans since the whole point of Generations was that it was a lovenote to the series. Iizuka agreed (in fact he loved the idea apparently), Sonic Team agreed to essentially throw out their level plan (don't ask me what it was I've no idea) and go with what the fans voted - with the caveat that we got a decent selection of levels. The vote had to be secret but that was a pretty major thing for ST to do. It went on from there to me suggesting that because the game was 'out of time' there were no conequences to the ongoing 'modern' timeline and you could put a whole bunch of fanservice and references in there and it wouldn't matter other than being pretty damn awesome for the fans. My feedback to SOE was "If this game is supposed to be a lovenote, let's make sure it is one." It was an excuse to ignore ST's own series rules - and focusing on that concept got them pretty receptive. I was asked to send them "some ideas".

I think they thought I'd send over like a handful of things. Cue horror from SOE as let loose I kindamaybe proceeded to write down about four to five pages of nods, winks, easter eggs and series memes (before memes were such a big thing) as suggestions for fan content they could include in a very short space of time! (There was also all the stuff in my original 20th Anniversary plan which was also pretty cool. Most of which never saw the light of day... and some of which came back from the dead 4 years later. lol)

I'll go into the list in detail in another entry in case someone wants to split this off or something. I'm kinda short on time tonight. Sorry.

- Funny thing. Initially I'd taken the Chaotix appearance into account! Ray and Mighty would've had seperate posters but I think it was thought by whoever created the posters at ST that having multiple Missing posters looked bad (or sad) so since I'd put that Bark and Bean would be together on the poster lumped the two together. When I was asked to confirm the text in an email Ray and Mighty were still seperate. The first time I saw they had been paired was in the game. They chose 1993 as the date for them both - which does indeed make Mighty inaccurate. But hey, not my fault! :eng101:


View PostPengi, on 04 September 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

I have a couple of questions. Did Sega/Sonic Team give you any information about Fang whilst you were working on Sonic City? There's been some discussion about his species lately.


I think the phrase is 'bugger all'. I wanted Sonic City to be a sort of halfway house between Sonic Channel (providing wallpapers, music, features and stuff) and a growing compedium of Sonic's history (I'd actually used Retro as an example when discussing it) that we could then call on when neccessary. SEGA's record keeping on Sonic wasn't much good - heck I ended up bringing half my own merch in just so SOE had access to something of an archive of Sonic games and items they could refer to. But like I say ST were less concerned about the past and more what was going on at the present. So anyway my idea was Sonic City would make SEGA 'the final word' on Sonic facts and we could actually look into things you guys bring up and it'd be a mix of old and new. When I overhauled the text there was stuff that I wanted to add, change and stuff I wanted to swing a very hefty axe at. Unfortunately I also needed ST's permission to delete items since the initial text (I didn't write what was there first) on the site was already approved by Sonic Team. Such text also included the likes of that nonsense on Tails' profile about Tails in Spanish being a girl or something which people in some parts of the community brought up for years as an example of how I clearly was stupid and knew nothing. :v: But I needed ST's permission to remove it and whoever the contact was I had said no. Not much I could do at that point in the early days. (True story I actually lost patience in the end and just deleted the fact one day. No one said anything.) Regarding Fang/Nack I was always fond of him as the game that made me a Sonic fan was Sonic Triple Trouble, so the first stuff I wanted to add was obviously about that game. ST kind of dragged their feet on it though, I suspected that no one could actually remember. I can't remember if that bio ever went up. If you went to SOS 2010 (I think) and saw the character profiles on the wall that included my unapproved Nack/Fang text. But yes getting some information and clarifications was next to impossible for some games. ST realllllllly didn't want to add Chaotix for some reason. Specifically Chaotix. Never got a straight answer as to why but it did go up eventually as I insisted it was important for the history of the Chaotix characters (the missing games weren't mentioned in the bios either, you see). Some of the folks at Sonic Team are a bit fond of the Chaotix I think so that eventually swayed the argument in my favour. :)

But nope, as far as I was concerned Nack/Fang he was a weasel and I never saw anything in the scraps of discussion I got about the character that suggested anything else.

View PostPengi, on 04 September 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Also, some parts of the fandom have been putting a lot of stock in the Generations Wanted poster, saying that "Nack" is his real name because it is listed first. Are they reading too much into it?


I am aware this is mentioned on Sonic News Network as this. But yes they very much are. He's Nack first because he was Nack to me (see Triple Trouble) so I wrote that name first. That's purely the only reason that name is mentioned first.
This post has been edited by ArchangelUK: 05 September 2017 - 07:09 PM

#3 User is offline ICEknight 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:54 PM

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View PostArchangelUK, on 05 September 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

ST realllllllly didn't want to add Chaotix for some reason. Specifically Chaotix. Never got a straight answer as to why

My guesses are:
-Since it's not an actual Sonic Team game, they don't want to give it more importance than, say, Sonic Spinball.
-The development of Chaotix was "X-treme" levels of hell and brings back really bad memories.
This post has been edited by ICEknight: 05 September 2017 - 10:05 PM

#4 User is offline Blue Spikeball 

Posted 05 September 2017 - 09:02 PM

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View PostArchangelUK, on 05 September 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

- Funny thing. Initially I'd taken the Chaotix appearance into account! Ray and Mighty would've had seperate posters but I think it was thought by whoever created the posters at ST that having multiple Missing posters looked bad (or sad) so since I'd put that Bark and Bean would be together on the poster lumped the two together. When I was asked to confirm the text in an email Ray and Mighty were still seperate. The first time I saw they had been paired was in the game. They chose 1993 as the date for them both - which does indeed make Mighty inaccurate. But hey, not my fault! :eng101:

Welp, I stand corrected. Sorry for blaming you.

#5 User is offline Hitlersaurus Christ 

Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:52 AM

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Please make a thread, AAUK (or just keep posting here since we've pretty much exhausted the original topic at this point)! It'd be really interesting to hear about all of the stuff you suggested and your experiences with Sega/ST and whatever else you'd be willing to share.
This post has been edited by Hitlersaurus Christ: 06 September 2017 - 01:52 AM

#6 User is offline big smile 

Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:27 AM

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Yes, I second this. @ArchangelUK if you have the time, please share more. Reading all your comments has been very exciting, especially the stuff about the posters and how Sonic Team approach things.

#7 User is offline Overlord 

Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:11 PM

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Split the topic off into a seperate one - I think it's worth it. Have taken the title based entirely off a Nickelodeon reference that happened to be bouncing though my head at the time, feel free to suggest something better =P

#8 User is offline JaxTH 

Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:49 PM

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View PostOverlord, on 06 September 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Split the topic off into a seperate one - I think it's worth it. Have taken the title based entirely off a Nickelodeon reference that happened to be bouncing though my head at the time, feel free to suggest something better =P

I love me some Melissa-Joan so I like the name.

#9 User is offline ArchangelUK 

Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:10 AM

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View PostOverlord, on 06 September 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Split the topic off into a seperate one - I think it's worth it. Have taken the title based entirely off a Nickelodeon reference that happened to be bouncing though my head at the time, feel free to suggest something better =P


Hi Sam. *Guitar twang*

Will try and answer questions and stuff soon when I'm not working - sorry, lots of PM shifts this last week and working the weekend too. Bleh. If you've any additional/specific questions drop them below.
This post has been edited by ArchangelUK: 09 September 2017 - 07:39 AM

#10 User is offline Roller 

Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:18 AM

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I'm fairly sure Nack got a bio on Sonic City eventually - back when Heroes was new and I was like 7, Metal Sonic and Nack's classic styled art really stood out to me as different from the more modern art for the primary cast (although Gems Collection helped contextualise them).

I thought that it was a particularly oddball selection of characters, at that point having feasted entirely on 3D and Advance games - but it's good to know now that it came from a place of love. So thanks!

EDIT: Having done some research, it sadly appears that I was conflating Sonic City with... Sonic Central. Oh well.
This post has been edited by Roller: 28 September 2017 - 03:15 PM

#11 User is offline Cooljerk 

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View PostOverlord, on 06 September 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Split the topic off into a seperate one - I think it's worth it. Have taken the title based entirely off a Nickelodeon reference that happened to be bouncing though my head at the time, feel free to suggest something better =P


na, na, nananaaaaa

#12 User is offline JaxTH 

Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:54 PM

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Is Sonic City SoaH or am I having a brain fart right now?

#13 User is online dot.kh 

Posted 03 October 2017 - 06:05 AM

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Hard to tell whether Sega's reaching out to fans or struggling with business. When I was a kid, I swear to god, there was a Sonic R demo in my happy meal. It didn't run on my computer and I felt dumb for it. Later I found out about Sonic the Fighters adding new characters. Bummer, totally missed out on that stuff.

I like the idea of holding onto your memories but I could use another Mega Collection first.
This post has been edited by dot.kh: 03 October 2017 - 12:43 PM

#14 User is offline ArchangelUK 

Posted 03 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

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Wow, I totally got distracted by life in general (see: work) but I thought I'd try and piece together the bits I recall. Some of this has been said before some of it not. This goes into three parts. Part one deals with my unused ideas from the 20th anniversary, part two is all the Generations Easter Egg ideas that were on my list that I can remember and part three which is all about the “anti-versary” campaign that never was.

BEFORE EVERYTHING

So, I've mentioned before about the meeting we had long before Generations where we discussed the what was going to happen during the 20th anniversary. Where myself and the Brand and PR teams whose focus was primarily the Sonic brand sat down to discuss things from our side because the company wanted ideas - not just from our region but ideas as to global activity for the anniversary. Money was no object, anything creative.

It was the first time I'd been involved in a meeting of this kind - i.e. a big campaign from day 1 on something, Community at SOE was kept a bit distant up until that point. We weren't even utilised at events beyond press ones, because, I was once told, "you know the product". Which makes no damn sense. Anyways after some initial rhubarb-rhubarb from around the table some things were set out. One of the very first things being confirming funding for Summer of Sonic 2011. Which was surprising to me because I was still trying to get them to get off their asses and give us money for Summer of Sonic 2010 at the time! (See the 'History of SOS' panel from SOS 2016, which is itself well worth a look - video here: https://www.youtube....h?v=uLl-4gYW2rA)

From there it was ideas galore. The ones everyone came up with were kind of tame and UK focused. I threw around some ideas and everyone kind of looked at me like "who asked you?". Which felt a bit odd because, well, you did! Since they never used any of my ideas I've no problems telling you them.

1) Bullet Train

If you remember that Sonic 'sponsorship' of a small train a while back (there's pictures on Google somewhere) in Japan you'll understand my amusement because one of the first things I suggested was sponsoring the Bullet Train. A graphical takeover of one because I wanted SEGA to play on how Sonic was the fastest (and best) there is - why not the symbol of speed for Japan? Have the train be "Sonic powered" for a bit.

It sure beats the f*** out of a tie-up with Hooters.

2) 'Blue Tops'

So, tabloid newspapers in the UK, for those that aren't aware are sometimes called 'red tops'. The Sun, the Daily Mirror, the Daily Star, etc. They all have red logos in their masthead. At the time Sonic was still polling as the UK's most popular character. For the UK I suggested sponsoring one of those papers with a fake outer sheet (advertisement) that had Sonic painting the logos blue for a time. "The UK turns blue for Sonic's 20th anniversary! UK's favourite games mascot celebrates landmark birthday." Etc, etc.

3) Google

The first words out of my mouth were actually "We should probably get in contact with Google now." I wanted us to talk to them to try and secure the Google Doodle for Sonic's birthday. I was asked to quantify how it would be of benefit. "Most of the internet using public will see it." Was told they didn't see how it could be of benefit and no one would talk about it.

About a week or so later the Pac-Man interactive game Google Doodle was released and the entire damn world was playing it and talking about Pac-Man. Same person was gushing about what clever marketing it was! There was much internal screaming at this point. Also "its been done now so we can't do it".

4) The Fastest Thing Alive

This one took a lot more explanation. On the fly I sketched out an idea for a cross-media campaign where we'd work with... wait for it... Usain Bolt. Bolt was still THE MAN at that time, obviously. And I liked the idea of working with him because he was known as the fastest man on the planet. I wanted us to work with him in terms of PR and marketing and hire him to work an advertising campaign with us. Some doors would be open to us thanks to the Olympics licence.

At some point in the future Bolt would win a race and, in his joy proclaim in the interview afterwards that he was "the fastest thing alive". The fans and games press would pick up on this and we could stir the pot on Twitter a bit. After another race where Bolt would again refer to himself as 'the fastest thing alive' SEGA would release a CG video of Sonic responding to Bolt's claim and reaffirming he was the fastest thing alive. Sonic would talk some trash and we'd set up an online feud between Usain Bolt and Sonic over who was faster. This would last the entire Summer and culminate in a challenge to a race which would be filmed race half-real/half-CG. I gave out a few options as to how it could end with the options being that it would appear a draw but later Sonic would clearly be shown to have been capable of moving far faster and could've won. Bolt would then accept he was the fastest *man* alive. And the campaign would draw to a close.

Naturally they all thought I was mad. Would've been bloody cool though and gained a lot of eyeballs.


GENERATIONS EASTER EGGS

So, when the door was opened to making the game a bit more fan-referencey the list I handed over of Easter Eggs and references for Generations was extensive. As you know a few things made it through, notably the wanted posters a reference to which made it into Mania I hear. (About the closest I'll ever get to being referenced in game I guess, lol.) The idea was it would include everything I possibly could about everything I possibly could. I set out a list of different locations and ways the references could be deployed. Posters, billboards, headlines on newspaper stands, shops names, street signs, graffiti, background objects, you name it. They would represent games, tv series, the comics and other media. Not just that but SEGA adverts, AND the fansites and fan community itself.

The idea I had was you could designate a number of spaces for things in the game and they have the game pull from a selection so it would be different each play through. So, you could have seasonal things as well then and just stuff the game full of references that would always be fresh. I also, to be clear, did not expect them to put this all in. But to pick a bunch they liked and go with it.
Now obviously this is not complete and will be out of order.
• EVERY game had a reference on the list. Seriously. Even Schoolhouse, Sonic Eraser and Tails & The Music Maker. There was even some sneaky love for SEGAGAGA.
• Every TV show (at the time) had a reference of some sort.
• Even the movie and Night of the Werehog were on the list.
• “Man of the Year” also had a reference (I actually wanted SEGA to release part two for the 20th anniversary)
• Graffiti tags to have included “It's No Use”, “Strange Isn't It?” “Get A Load Of This”, “Gotta Go Fast”, “Mr. Yuji Naka Is All Right” and “Live & Learn”
• Stylised, almost political images of Black Doom with alien language (Think the ones of Breen in Half-Life 2's City 17)
• Archie would've got a nod with Sonic comics (a selection from down the years) on show in a shop. STH, Sonic X and Universe. The UK's Sonic The Comic would have been in there too.
• A reference to Professor Gerald – a poster about a museum exhibition about his life's work, I suggested.
• In similar fashion an advertisement that would've featured the explorers from Mystic Ruins in SA1 presenting their “long awaited findings”.
• A reference to Gizoid technology.
• A missing poster for the 4th Chaos Emerald. [Think about it]
• Crush 40 in concert. Or some sort of reference to them anyway.
• Sonic Channel's sketch Sonic as graffiti. Other references to Sonic City and Sonic Central also included.
• Graffiti to also include a reference to Jet Set Radio - hey, it made sense to me.
• Summer of Sonic (or a play on it using the same logo design) referenced
• The most cutting one? A long time coming receipt to Rare for the ‘No Hopers’ reference in Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest which would've had a “Cranky's Store” somewhere which would be seen to be condemned.
• SEGA Cyber Razor Cut and other ads from the three regions (US/EU/JP) to appear on TV in windows.
• Chao In Space 3 – which made it in. I put it as “The Search For Tikal” to parody Start Trek III's “The Search For Spock”.
• Now, the reason for the “Charmy Bee Honey”. It's actually a mistake. I wanted a series of billboards that featured supermarket style adverts for products on sale in stores now. I heard back Sonic Team didn't understand what I meant so I explained it again as it being supermarkets selling a product that was a reference to a character - like it was something people could buy in store. I then said “like Charmy Bee Honey – but obviously not that exactly”.You SHOULD'VE got an advertisement for the Chaotix Detective Agency which was one of them, as a result you didn't. BOO.

Also missing the cut as a result was a reference to
o A “Squirrel vest” – the most obvious Sally reference I could think of.
o A Handheld computer – Hi Nicole.
o Chilli dogs – my ones would've included a call back to Unleashed
o Magic Gloves
o Chip's ice cream.
o Chaos Cola
o Amy's Hammer
o Sonic Jam – the actual jam that was made at the time.
o The Water Necklace from SA2.
o The magic ring from Sonic's Christmas Blast
o Caliburn
o The lamp and Shahra's ring from Secret Rings
o A rug looking suspiciously like Weresonic's fuzzy pelt.
o A nod to Mario – though I forget what it was.
o And a whole heap of various items and discarded power-ups from the games and comics.

• A poster for the Sonic sibling's band from Underground.
• References to ALL the companies and organisations mentioned in the games previously: HEXAeco, G.U.N, MeteorTech, etc.
• The Flicky family from SA1 would be visible on a telephone wire or washing line. As would the four Flickies from Sonic 3D.
• A reference to Wonderman - I forget what
• A torn-up poster advertising The EX World Grand Prix with King Doc
• Another advertising Eggman's theme park from Colours.
• The Burger Man statue, abandoned, seemingly in the middle of nowhere.
• A SONICMAN REFERENCE WAS ON THE LIST.
• All road signs would've had directional arrows and references to previous locations. Everything from Station Square to Soleanna, Empire City to Pumpkin Hill, Green Hill to Westopolis. Despite it being in a different continent – in theory – Bellbridge and Twin Seeds from the two NiGHTS games were also on the list. Knothole was specifically highlighted as one that had to be included.
• Street signs however reference key members in the community and fansites. The example I always recall is “Scarred Sun Boulevard” but I gave a list of about ten names over as an example. Stadium, Retro, Wrecks and other sites were all referenced in some way. I was the least convinced this would get through for obvious reasons but initial noises from SOE weren't against the idea.
• A NiGHTS Hotel poster advertising new locations and new management. The management would've been “Triplett Sonmez Inc” in a reference to the real-life surnames of NiGHTSintoDreams.com's TRiPPY and DiGi Valentine.



THE ANTI-VERSARY


One other thing that never made it but was front in centre of the first drafts of my community plan was a whole concept I cooked up called the “Anti-versary” though I'd later be kicking myself I didn't call it the “Adversary” which entirely revolved around Dr. Eggman.

The idea was that it was his 20th anniversary too and he was sick and tired of being pushed to the background and forgotten about so he would take SEGA on himself. So, there would be a social media campaign and all sorts of activity carried out by the community team – but at the same time there would be another campaign, presumably by Eggman himself, that was actively trying to undo it. This would escalate over the months. Dr. Eggman would vandalise the Sonic portals, have new trailers taken down and replaced by others that made him out to be the star and Sonic the villain. There'd be pro-Robotnik propaganda and advertisements taken out on websites. He'd have his own Twitter and take shots at the official Sonic Twitter, then @SonicGames, which I wanted to build up. He'd interfere with events and competitions We'd get the V/A's involved to produce some supporting stuff. Eventually Sonic himself would start ‘responding’ to Eggman and they'd begin taking shots at each other - Eggman would even take over the Sonic Twitter and start haranguing fan sites and press sites and voice actors.

And if this is sounding kind of familiar... yeahhhh, I'll get to that.

I'd even sketched out activity for E3 or Gamescom with Dr. Eggman appearing with a team and literally throwing SEGA out after the first day, replacing SEGA with his own minions, reworking the entire booth area and even going so far as showing a different build of the game before day three when SEGA would try and take it back. It'd become something you'd have to keep track of throughout the expo and as a result there'd be multiple coverage from all areas throughout as opposed to one and done articles from websites, fan sites and press.

Ultimately it never came to be. Sonic Team did not like the idea of having Sonic or Eggman actually say anything, and if we couldn't have it even implied that it was them – well it all fell apart. They were dead against it and I was told such a thing would never be allowed to happen.

Of course, SOA didn't know that and to be super-duper clear I'm not saying or even implying they nicked the idea. Aaron had left SEGA the first time at that point (I think) and everyone else is long gone. There was no way they could have known. (And I've just learned they're doing another takeover right now so this is SUPER bad timing, ugh…) But it has been a source of amusement that they've since come up with a similar idea which is now an award-winning social media campaign for SOA, whilst I was just categorised as a crazy fanboy who had no idea about such things. Nice to be ahead of my time I guess(!)

If you've any specific questions I'll answer them if I can when I can on here.




View PostJaxTH, on 28 September 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Is Sonic City SoaH or am I having a brain fart right now?


Definately cranial wind.
This post has been edited by ArchangelUK: 03 November 2017 - 02:22 PM

#15 User is offline Casshern 

Posted 03 November 2017 - 02:34 PM

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View PostArchangelUK, on 03 November 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:


3) Google

The first words out of my mouth were actually "We should probably get in contact with Google now." I wanted us to talk to them to try and secure the Google Doodle for Sonic's birthday. I was asked to quantify how it would be of benefit. "Most of the internet using public will see it." Was told they didn't see how it could be of benefit and no one would talk about it.

About a week or so later the Pac-Man interactive game Google Doodle was released and the entire damn world was playing it and talking about Pac-Man. Same person was gushing about what clever marketing it was! There was much internal screaming at this point. Also "its been done now so we can't do it".

4) The Fastest Thing Alive

This one took a lot more explanation. On the fly I sketched out an idea for a cross-media campaign where we'd work with... wait for it... Usain Bolt. Bolt was still THE MAN at that time, obviously. And I liked the idea of working with him because he was known as the fastest man on the planet. I wanted us to work with him in terms of PR and marketing and hire him to work an advertising campaign with us. Some doors would be open to us thanks to the Olympics licence.

At some point in the future Bolt would win a race and, in his joy proclaim in the interview afterwards that he was "the fastest thing alive". The fans and games press would pick up on this and we could stir the pot on Twitter a bit. After another race where Bolt would again refer to himself as 'the fastest thing alive' SEGA would release a CG video of Sonic responding to Bolt's claim and reaffirming he was the fastest thing alive. Sonic would talk some trash and we'd set up an online feud between Usain Bolt and Sonic over who was faster. This would last the entire Summer and culminate in a challenge to a race which would be filmed race half-real/half-CG. I gave out a few options as to how it could end with the options being that it would appear a draw but later Sonic would clearly be shown to have been capable of moving far faster and could've won. Bolt would then accept he was the fastest *man* alive. And the campaign would draw to a close.

Naturally they all thought I was mad. Would've been bloody cool though and gained a lot of eyeballs.



I cannot believe these 2 ideas were not used. Especially the Google one. I always thought it was a missed opportunity that Sonic wasn't featured in the Google doodle in his anniversaries and be able to play an endless runner in Green Hill or Sonic The Sketchog.

Then again, from my experience at my job, I know the feeling of having these "crazy ideas" that get shot down and later be successful for other companies.

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