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Sonic Classic Heroes

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by flamewing, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    Here is a new video preview:

    This shows the new Knuckles animation on the title screen (by FeliciaVal) and the new (fully functional) options screen. All that remains now is to finish up the special stages and the next revision is done.

    Unless you guys want to wait for things such as peelout, shields, multi-carry.
     
  2. FeliciaVal

    FeliciaVal

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    glad to see my sprites worked once again :) also I volunteer myself again if you need any more sprites for the game. The options screen looks sweet! and I'm glad you can choose between how many characters you'd like to play as well. Keep up the great work :D
     
  3. A new revision would be neat, but waiting I think is better, as all the new stuff would make it worth the wait. :)
     
  4. Demi

    Demi

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    You seem to have changed the HUD for the sake of changing it, change it back please.
     
  5. flamewing

    flamewing

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    I changed it for the sake of having enough VRAM space for Knuckles. I can't change it back without getting rid of Knuckles.
     
  6. Deef

    Deef

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    I prefer to not wait lol, but any chance the shields can make their way in to an imminent release? Just because with Knuckles's new buff and Sonic's new nerfs the character imbalance is really defined.

    I love that this 3-at-once game allows me to test out that feel so instantly, to entertain my own interests... but yeah, there is a huge pull to only play as Knuckles and Tails now. Having Sonic as focus kinda feels like "... but why?". But I know you'll get to it eventually too... I'm just hanging out for that change heh.


    Sweet work on the title screen btw. It's cool to see a new title screen animation with Knuckles that really fits the old style. Also happy to see the player can now go back to good old 2-at-once mode if they want. Now it's less like enforced 3 characters, a la Heroes, and more like the Sonic 3 mashup everyone's been waiting for. (Are there even any other fangames/hacks that ever got around to delivering this?)
     
  7. Selbi

    Selbi

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    It makes sense, but if possible, in whatever way, do it please. The HUD looks good, but I just prefer the original.

    As for the video, are those character combinations in the options necessary when you can just switch the leader in-game? I mean, being able to select 2 and 1 players, with your desired ones is ok, but I don't see why having every possibly combination... :X
     
  8. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    I think it was a really bad idea to remove Knuckles' poor jumping abilities.

    I'd suggest to put them back, so there's still a reason for choosing Sonic over Knuckles.
     
  9. Miles3298

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    Has the thing where jumping when on a vine in Mystic Cave hangs the game been fixed? It only happens when I've got the "68k Address Error" setting on in my emulator of choice, so I *assume* that if that is still a problem, that your thing here would probably help with that.

    You may want to put a color-switcher object or two near the boss room in Wing Fortress - it's possible to get there and have the rotating greys in effect instead of the firey ones. Also, if you die while fighting the boss, the level scrolls all the way there from the beginning, and you end up starting above the action. This is from Revision 0.05.

    Also, I wouldn't mind a release - I want to play the special stages.

    So, yeah, awesome stuff.
     
  10. The Shad

    The Shad

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    I'm starting to wonder if you people are just picking for the sake of picking.

    Even my dumbass realised he had to change the HUD for Knuckles. You seem to just want it as the original for the sake of it being the original and nothing more. What he has now doesn't detract at all from the gameplay, why bother?

    On Knuckles jumping abilities -- Really? You care that much about him jumping lower that it's an issue? It'd be one thing if you were playing as separate characters ala Sonic & Knuckles, but you're not. There are no "Knuckles Specific Routes". It's Sonic 2. All routes are more or less accessible for all the characters, especially with Knuckles ability to climb walls. For Knuckles jump height to be an issue when TAILS NULLIFIES THAT BY FLYING is just.. It's daft.

    And I don't see why not. It neither helps nor hinders the game. If anything, maybe a feature will come along in a future revision that makes use of it. For now though, it's nifty and I think it's at least a nice touch. Why take it out?

    As for releasing the newest revision, while I'd like to see you add as much as you could before the next one, I like the idea we get them periodically. It's almost like as long as you're releasing, it keeps you working on it. I really wanna see you take this as far as you can (without going into feature overload, of course :P) before you're finally done working on it. Of course, my guilty pleasure would be new zones but as long as you've shown it can be done, someone else will hopefully come along and pick up the ball with what you've done for that.

    Keep up the awesome work, bro.
     
  11. Deef

    Deef

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    What's daft is thinking accessibility is the only thing defining a character's gameplay.
    What's also daft is then deciding to give people stick for whatever understanding is going through your mind.

    Obviously accessibility has no connection to the points we made. Like you said, it's a non-issue. ICEknight had his point, I had mine, neither of which had anything to do with accessibility. But thanks for spelling out that Tails can fly.
     
  12. The Shad

    The Shad

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    Cool missing of the point and out of context quote, bro.

    The accessibility is part of whatever balance that may be worried about. There's simply no reason to include Knuckles shit jumping. The only reason to want it is the same reason as people wanting him to include the original HUD: For the sake of it and nothing more. The idea of "balance" in a game not originally designed around those attributes is nonexistent. If anything, all these additions make an already easy game easier, throwing all sense of balance out the window. Hell, truth be told, the only time I've ever noticed Knuckles jump being inferior was in S3&K when trying to get to Sonic's paths.

    I can see how there would be a "pull for Knuckles/Tails" over Sonic due to their abilities and Sonic lacking if this was all there was. Except it's not. It's a work in progress. With plans to add shields which Sonic makes better use of than Tails/Knuckles (if I've read right, anyways). I'd worry more about how those would make certain levels a joke than how high a character jumps.
     
  13. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Sure, just find me 32 contiguous tiles in VRAM in each level where I can put Knuckles and I will do it. Keep in mind that I also need 16 tiles for his dust/bubbles, which I got from converting the shield and invincibility stars to DPLC, with enough to spare for shields and insta-shield to coexist (as well as flame dash, bubble bounce etc.). Removing the name from the life icons gave me enough VRAM to have the 3 life icons.

    The leader changes in-game do not cross between levels; this option does. Besides, the new options screen just gives a GUI for selecting what order you want the players to be in, something which was possible with Game Genie/PAR codes since the first revision.


    Once again: Knuckles only has normal jumping when controlled by the CPU. As soon as it is being controlled by a joystick -- ANY joystick -- he goes back to his S3&K jumping strength. I am thinking of changing that, but haven't done it yet. See also my reply to The Shad, below.


    That is fixed, yes.

    This is also fixed. It is a good idea about the palette changer -- it is way too easy to skip the existing palette changer.

    Moreover, I will probably have to do away with Knuckles' low jump when I do S3&K: Heroes or he will have trouble following Sonic/Tails into their routes.
     
  14. nineko

    nineko

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    I think your rationale about Knuckles' jump makes a lot of sense. AI Knuckles jumps more so he can follow Sonic and Tails; 1P Knuckles jumps like normal Knuckles. For what it's worth, I approve this idea. Of course one might object and say that you can play as Knuckles, then switch to Sonic/Tails just to get where Knuckles can't arrive, and then switch back to him again, but eh. I will survive.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Considering he magically rejoins you when you lose him anyway, I don't see why that's a problem.
     
  16. Willie

    Willie

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    The Sega intro, the title screen, and the menu are really, really awesome. Damn nice work.
     
  17. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Think of it like this: It's like putting Heavy and Bomb in a hack without their respective heavyness and explosiveness.
     
  18. Deef

    Deef

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    Mmm it did look out of context but it wasn't intentional, so I edited that quote.

    I understand and agree with what you're saying about accessibility. When it comes to access, having a low jumping character is meaningless because the game has nothing designed around it and you've got a high jumping character right next door anyway. So why bother with low jumping because it means nothing in regards to what the player can access; all you get is a character with "crappy" jumping.

    This is understood but just not the point. Accessibility is a part of balance, sure, but to repeat myself and the bit you aren't acknowledging:
    Neither Iceknight nor myself were expressing any issue with accessibility. Accessibility - or the meaninglessness of any piece of it - is not the only issue defining how a character feels to play.

    This makes sense as to why you aren't thinking there is more to it. (It begs one to ask, if you don't notice it, why do you care either way? Surely it's understandable that people would prefer the original feel preserved?)

    To me, it drags. It drags in Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. I don't care what Knuckles can and can't access or if there is instead a magical pink wall stopping him from going places Sonic can. It's not just access that changes the meaning of Knuckles' jump, it's jumping. Anywhere. Or put it this way; do you really think they made him jump lower in S&K in order to control his routes? No. It was to nerf him deliberately as a character.

    Obviously I'm one who prefers the higher jump for its feel, but my concern is undoing that nerf. It might well upset the balance that has nothing to do with accessibility. The "pull" for Knuckles is not connected to his accessibility. Even Tails gets sidelined in my game now; Knuckles is just so powerful, but this could be personal preference because I never found flying that fun. Yes I did acknowledge that Sonic's abilities are coming, in the same paragraph you cited. And once they are in I will be able to consider anew how the balance of the characters is affected by Knuckles' jumping. It's great because Sonic 2 Heroes gives such an on-the-fly way to test that. And during this testing, playing, accessibility never crosses my mind.


    I'm confused. Do you mean "Only has normal jumping when controlled by the CPU or keyboard"? Because all I see is full height jumping, using a keyboard.

    S3&K Heroes? :D Yes please. What about Sonic 1? Possible?



    Anyway, personally I prefer the full height jumping Knuckles but I am waiting until the shields to see how much it makes him the best character. He's already much funner than Tails with this jumping imo.
     
  19. flamewing

    flamewing

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    The difference is very slight in any case; you say keyboard, I say joystick, but the effect is the same -- Knuckles jumps lower than Sonic or Tails if any human is controlling him (whether it is by keyboard, joystick, or whatever other crazy method of input is used), and jumps the same as them whenever the M68000 (emulated or otherwise) has control over his actions.

    It is possible, but there will be a lot of work involved -- a LOT. The main reason are palettes -- the main palette is used by all sorts of things, meaning an edit to fit Knuckles in will affect a lot of stuff. There are many other reasons as well -- I would not only have to port almost every single ASM change I made in Sonic 2 for Sonic 2 Heroes into Sonic 1, I would also have to port a lot of stuff from plain Sonic 2 into Sonic 1 and fix a lot of bugs in Sonic 1. It might just turn out to be easier to convert the Sonic 1 levels and objects to Sonic 2 instead...

    Moreover, just having Knuckles or Tails in Sonic 1, with their abilities intact, already makes the game far too easy. Sonic 2: Heroes is arguably easier than plain Sonic 2; combine these, and it is probable that Sonic 1: Heroes becomes laughably easy.

    For the moment, I will focus on finishing S2: Heroes, then in doing S3&K: Heroes. After that, I will take a closer look at S1: Heroes to see if it is feasible; for the moment, my initial gut feeling is 'not likely to happen'.
     
  20. nineko

    nineko

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    Sonic 1 and 2: heroes? :)
    ColinC10 and Flamewing, you know you want to make it happen.