It's the other way around to me. The game must have a sense of progression so that whatever story it's trying to tell works. Sonic Mania doesn't have that even though it supposedly has a story and everything is tied to something else, so it feels off. Sonic 1 simply stays undefeated as the best sense of progression in the series to me. The game that comes closer is Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the the first half hinders that too.
yeah I absolutely got this vibe. the explicit references to earlier games also struck me as "don't worry, these are still canon despite this" too. I can't say I agree with this. Marble -> Spring Yard -> Labyrinth -> Star Light makes absolutely no sense thematically at all, and gameplay-wise their gimmicks are largely super different from each other too. Actually like, Sonic 1's level gimmicks in general are often just stuck in their respective zones - water only shows up again for Scrap Brain 3, and that was explicitly due to time/effort constraints.
Would it be wrong to say that I don't entirely appreciate this sort of approach? I can't help but wonder if they took this route more out of a lack of confidence in their immediate inability to write something concrete. Screaming outwards about its poor execution, when instead they could have just written something new that fits that 'refresh' they want to take. "I'm all bark now, but I'll totally bite later..." Do my worries seem reasonable?
It's very methodical. There's a slow/blocky zone after every fast/slopey zone, each harder than the last and introducing a new, very particular way to kill you that it uses systematically. There's a very well-rounded sense of accomplishment after every stage that Sonic 3 doesn't give me, and the nature → mechanical progression is the smoothest we've ever had. Being in Scrap Brain and remembering you once struggled in Green Hill feels great, especially because I get the feeling Scrap Brain will sometimes mirror Green Hill mechanically. I've never taken a good look to see if that's true; it's just a feeling. Now Sonic & Knuckles is very good in that regard to me too, although its movement is different. It's just Sonic 3 that I don't really "get". It's like you're running in circles until the Actual Journey -- from Mushroom Hill on -- starts. I don't think the reason why something was or wasn't implemented really matters. The fact is that Sonic 1 is the way it is, and the level gimmicks being stuck in their respective zones is a blessing and a virtue to me. I really don't enjoy how almost every Sonic 3 stage has water, but not always and almost never used in a way I find interesting. It just makes levels blend together. I also find the thematic progression very satisfying: the margin for error gets thinner as you go, and every next level can kill you in a way the last one couldn't, but building on what the last stage "of its kind" did. No other Sonic game makes as much sense as Sonic 1 to me, in that it gives me -- again -- a very well-rounded feeling of accomplishment.
I've replayed all the genesis Sonic games to death, so none of them give me a sense of accomplishment anymore. :p. As a kid I remember thinking Sonic 2 was harder, but I guess Sonic 1 has a smoother difficulty curve. Tbh the idea of preferring Sonic 1 to 2, 3&K and Mania is kinda wild to me. Tho I like Sonic 1 more than most nowadays it feels like so I can respect it. Once you go in knowing the game flows between fast pasted and slow paced levels, it's fun on its own merits imo.
Spring Yard Zone is not a fast/slopey zone. Sonic 1 doesn't alternate fast and slow, it gets increasingly slow and blocky, with only Star Light being a breather.
I thought hey, I might be wrong. Spring Yard does have those blocks that move up and down and that's a blocky structure if there ever was one. I had to go and take a look. But if this isn't slopey or doesn't allow moments of speed, even if they don't last long or aren't very streamlined since you can bounce around -- especially when compared to this or this, I don't think we'll agree on much of anything. Spring Yard is a stage in which you can use speed to jump off walls to find new areas. This is nowhere to be seen in Marble or Labyrinth. And it has this: Which is pretty cool. (I think it's the first time we get half pipes in the series, which is even cooler)
Out of all the osts in the franchise, the one that's my favorite is Rise of Lyric's. I absolutely love atmospheric music, and I wish the series would do it more. These are probably my favorites: (I wish I could find an extended version) And my personal favorite level theme in the whole series
Even in a a thread entitled 'Unpopular Sonic Opinions' in which people are invited to share the opinions they hold which may go against views that are more commonly-held? WILD, AN UNPOPULAR OPINION APPEARED IN THE UNPOPULAR OPINION THREAD.
Yea I opened myself up for that one. You can skip pretty much all of the moving block sections with good use of Sonic's physics and momentum.
I dunno, there's a fair few slopes in the outdoors of the Marble map as well. You can roll down the slope and use that speed to carry yourself and jump over a bunch of moving platform stuff without slowing down. But that doesn't make Marble a fast zone either. Spring Yard is certainly faster and more slopey than Labyrinth, but it's much slower and more blocky than Green Hill and Star Light. I dunno, if you gave me two piles, one with Green Hill and Star Light, and one with Marble and Scrap Brain, and said "where does Spring Yard belong?" then I'm putting it with Marble and Scrap Brain. A statement which applies equally to Marble and Spring Yard, strengthening my point.
As far as I remember, none of the sequence-breakable Marble Zone bits start with a downhill slope. All those moments are basically just jumping from a flat square platform to another flat square platform with the right timing. The problem I have with Marble in particular is that it's pretty much entirely linear. Even if it was as slopey as you say, there'd be much less you can do with them compared to the other zones, ESPECIALLY Spring Yard.
Marble Zone even with shortcuts is still quite a bit longer and slow paced than Spring Yard though. Even in a casual run, Spring Yard is fairly open with opportunities to build up speed outside of the moving block sections.
I don't really find it that much more blocky than Green Hill, to be perfectly honest. Other than the signature double-S-tube section, I find Green Hill to have about as much potential for motion play and verticality as Spring Yard -- a stage that, again, introduced us to the half-pipe. And I mean, you're comparing Marble Zone, where this is as much free acceleration from a slope as you'll ever find: To a stage whose Act 3 starts out like this just for shits and giggles: So I personally would never put them on the same pile. EDIT: (In any case, this isn't directly quantifiable. It's just a feeling. I always find bouncing around in Spring Yard and jumping really high just to fall just as fast to be a moment of freedom and joy between Marble and Labyrinth. Big, inconsequential slope moments like the one above andd the ones where a Roller chases you. It makes me appreciate the three of them even more)
While it's far from the best, I wholeheartedly concur that there are some underrated tracks in Rise of Lyric. The Abandoned Lab theme you posted is a standout, as are the caves under Turtle Rock Slowpoke Isle Crater Lake. There's probably lots of great compositions from Jacques in there that we have yet to appreciate because, like something like Sonic 4, the entire OST uses the same batch of instruments, meaning that almost nothing manages to stand out much. What was crazy for me was learning a lot of the much better Shattered Crystal OST were essentially the same melodies as in Rise of Lyric, but different arrangements (the Bygone Island theme and the first level of Shattered Crystal, for example). It makes me wonder how many decent remixes you could mine out of the thing that are just potential waiting to be discovered (wouldn't make a bad mod for the game, either). EDIT: Slowpoke Isle, not Turtle Rock. That's from Zelda. EDIT 2: It wasn't even the right area. I'm nicer to the game than most people but damn if pieces of it don't completely blend together
I can't actually help but find the placement of my favorite ost/game in the series quite amusing. My favorite game in the series, HD Unleashed, has my 2nd favorite ost and my 2nd favorite game, RoL, has my favorite ost.
Your actually like Rise of Lyric and its soundtrack??? You my friend have won the thread for the having the most unpopular opinion. Congratulations. In all seriousness, what is it that you like about Rise of Lyric?
Joke with Rise of Lyric, but to this day, it still got one of best cutscene in the franchise, animation-wise.
So we're on the topic of Rise of Lyric? It has the best visual depiction of Sonic's world out of all the 3D games. Even if the actual in-game graphics are nothing to write home about, the overall environment design is nothing short of immaculate. The game's concept art especially lets the art direction shine. As far as I'm concerned, no other 3D Sonic game has come as close to matching the feel of the OVA and the Sonic CD intro.
