New Sonic 2 development lore drop - Genocide/Cyber City palette and art!

I expected a front-page post or an announcement with all the links to the materials right there, maybe hosted as a single zip.
I would like to see all the materials together in addition to just the updated wiki with scattered content.

 

Maybe tomorrow evening, if no one will get ahead of me.

 

Something that's been on my mind since I first watched the video: South Island was supposed to be a recurring location in the Sonic series (kind of like Nintendo's Wuhu Island). The design used in Yasuhara sketches is pretty much the same used in the 8-bit version of Sonic 1. Was this general design created for Sonic 1 8-bit and then inspired the developers of Sonic 2? Or was it created for the original Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive, didn't show up in the game for whatever reason, was used in the 8-bit version by Ancient Corporation and then inspired the developers of Sonic 2?
And what do you think Yasuhara meant by the maps being conceived as "Mario 3 like" early in development? Do you think players would be able to move around in it or would it be a mere way for the game to show their progress (like in the 8-bit version of Sonic 1)?

 

But only if that doesn’t flag the content for takedown or something. I don’t know what the policy is on front-page content.

Maybe it would also make sense to have a wiki page or some historical page for this particular “content reveal” event.

 

I put those on the wiki. The actual maps are on there, it just wasn't super clear because they didn't have labels, which I just fixed. The low-res chunk-applied maps probably should be replaced with something better. In this case the original maps definitely need something to help improve readability for people who just want to check out the layouts. I don't take as hard of a stance, but it's definitely worth being careful with fan interpretations on the wiki because as we've already discussed people will take it, run with it, and say it's the truth.

 

Hate say it, but I think I'm out of the loop.

We have Ocean Wind concept design documents with a signpost?

Can you point me to them?

So we don't have higher res versions of those maps than what we got months ago?

VGHF never released them?

 

I think they're talking about Tom Payne's drawing of that water level with the submarine.

But honestly, the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that it was just an idea from Payne that never went anywhere, much like Craig Stitt's carnival level.

 

Do we have new higher-resolution maps of CCZ than what we got months ago? I thought those would be released.

 

Here's the thing about this, people take it, run with it, and say it's the truth anyway. The reach of sonictubers who will lie for the sake of clickbait is unfortunately far wider than this forum could ever be, and the wiki should at least offer a way to contextualize development, research, and to a lesser extent, informed theory. Not discussing or showing the B-Bomb chunks for example, was a huge disservice and made finding them again much harder, even when it's quite plausible that they were at least loosely relevant to the stage. Addressing some misconceptions in detail is often better than ignoring them. Showing recreations 'with the clear annotations that they are not authentic roms' helps prevent misunderstandings and gives a source you can point to in order to clear things up.

The fact that the GCZ page exists and has very little of the new info is quite annoying. Some version of the map documents should be on the page, along withe other confirmed sprite assets.

The problem is, when good information on these issues is buried in 50+ pages of debate and discussion, it's a disservice to the wider fandom precisely because it gives room for others to misinterpret things from here or elsewhere 'without' giving a clear ground to counter it. Plus, why hide something as cool as a recreation based off of extensive research, so long as it's labeled properly?

The wiki's goal of keeping truth and accuracy is good, but there's a degree of fault here that ignores the simple truth that bad faithed actors will lie no matter what. Better to have more information available based on the research than no way to address it at all. Several parts of the wiki discuss fan hacks, even have direct download links, and put them in proper context, and boy is it helpful when I try to research them and their history.

This batch, how it was uncovered, what we've learned from it, and how the community has partially recreated a version of the stage should not be an exception.

Edit: Additionally, the wiki itself should be a source for hosting Hez's recreation if other romhacks are allowed on there. It's been hard to even keep it up online due to google drive false flagging it as a virus. The wiki could fix this issue. A dedicated page for Hez's recreation itself should be made since it's 'historically relevant' to the history of this game and the community now, even if other fanhacks will surpass it later on. The fact that none of you thought to do this yet is the frustrating and exactly the sort of thing that needs to change. There should also be a page discussing the VGHF's reveal itself and the process that led to it being uncovered.

 

The maps are in the folder named Level Maps (Loose, No Order), although they're all covered by a highly intrusive red chunk grid, just like Frank said.

However, there's also a Photoshop file in there named GCZ1.psd, which I couldn't open due to being on a phone right now. I wonder if it'd provide help with getting rid of the grids?

 

Blue Lake, no?
Also, we still don't sure cuz THE NAME IS CUT AT HALF!!!! Uhh.. is original title at least known by vhf?

 

we do have some idea here. The Sonic 2 zones in Nick Arcade have three acts - though, whether that is an intentional design decision or not can be debated. The levels are essentially "overlaid" onto Sonic 1's level slots, and none of the act 3 slots actually have layouts worked on (fun fact, Hill Top hardcrashes because it's in Scrap Brain Zone's slot and has a trigger that loads art that no longer exists, to load the Labyrinth art for act 3). Green Hill Zone, meanwhile, has all three acts present and seemingly just carried over, likely for testing.

I think what tips this over to "just a result of the game being built on top of Sonic 1" is that Emerald Hill Zone doesn't have three acts, or at least act 3 is not mentioned at all in the article. Given that Emerald Hill is the most "polished" of the levels in the game, it implies that by the time NA was compiled, the 3-act structure was already scrapped but the code being basically "Sonic 1 with smaller tiles and different collision" means they had to copy-paste layouts for the new zones until they could properly get rid of it.

 

Not as far as I know? I just stole them from this thread. If I added something to the wiki that's outdated, inaccurate, etc. please replace it, I will absolutely not be offended.

Just to make my stance clear, I didn't say I think they shouldn't be allowed, just that we have to be careful. Lots of disclaimers, pointing out exactly what's been interpreted, things like that. Also in regards to Hez's recreation specifically, I think it's amazing, but an executable people have to download isn't a good way to show information on a wiki. This is why I think a better image to show the layout would be preferable.

 

I'm fine with blacking out the art I used if it makes people get bent out of shape about it. I just want a map that doesn't show 5 pixels that are blurry. I still argue this is a special case when it comes to recreations, as we have map data but no actual assets to fill it in. It's still, in my opinion, similar to false colors in an astronomy photo.

The .psd might have been my doing and it might be the removed red lines spoke of. I will check it when I am home unless someone else gets to it.

EDIT: Billy, there's a ROM with it in the game as well I provided above if an exe spooks people out.

 

The wiki is a collaborative project - it's no more "mine" than it is yours. Rather than pointing out the problems... fix them?

 

I could definitely buy that? Assuming Cyber City was meant to be the very last regular Zone that was going to be played and knowing there's copies of the 'Future' map that each give Cyber City it's own set of 'slots', I feel they wanted to place emphasis on this area being important. I know there was some speculation earlier on in this thread about 'Neo Green Hill' potentially taking place before the Death Egg due to the level name, but I honestly think the time travel there might have just been to set up the game's ending later on. There's not a whole lot suggesting how a Cyber City -> Aquatic Ruin -> Death Egg transition might have worked.

Honestly I chalked up the 'Mario 3 like' comment as something just showcasing where the player is in the enviornment with a little sprite indicating the character you're playing as, with tiles showcasing the levels on the maps. I assume the 'Mario 3' comparisons come from that being on Yasuhara's mind at the time since they were looking for something that was as appealing to a mass market as Mario, and both World and Sonic 1 weren't out yet (so Bros. 3 was the best comparison they had at the time). I don't think you would've been able to freely move around since there isn't a lot suggesting a less linear way of progression was ever planned. Bros. 3 also doesn't allow you to initially replay levels after beating them once until you reach the game's ending. The idea was probably the same here (and 3K does something similar funny enough with it's save system).

I feel like the map in Ancient's Sonic 1 was probably their own doing after realizing the game took place on an island and they might have been inspired by Mario as well.

I apologize if my previous post wasn't terribly clear! I'm talking about more about what inspired the developers themselves to switch to a 2 Act system. As far as I know, no official statement about why that was done was ever really made. It's a super trivial thing in the grand scheme of things, but I'm curious if it was concerns over pacing or memory limitations that dawned on them first - probably the latter.

Like I stated in my last post, Tom's timeline document seems to suggest the idea was dead really early on if it was ever considered. I think Emerald Hill lacking a proper '3rd Act' in the Nick Arcade prototype like you mentioned is also pretty telling.

 

As a recap: I mirrored these within 24 hours of them being released, suggested that someone should make use of them because I was busy, gave clues to how it could be done, a couple of days passed and not much happened, so I did the job myself.

 

sorry to pop in. would any of this be helpful to you hez?

 

There's a bit of data that supports Neo Green Hill/Aquatic Ruin originally taking place before the Death Egg outside of the S3&K comparison. In the Simon Wai proto, the final three level slots are:
0E - Genocide City
0F - Neo Green Hill
10 - Death Egg
According to the story doc, after Genocide City, the (Neo) Death Egg would escape into the past, so it's not completely out of left field that the player would go through a level located on the past map before boarding the Death Egg ala Sky Sanctuary. If Olympus was the early name for what became Neo Green Hill then that might also explain why it was circled on the map concept, being the game's finale location, or perhaps the game normally ended at Genocide 3 and the player only accesed Neo Green Hill/Neo Death Egg by collecting all the emeralds ala Doomsday.

 

Technically the document implies that only "the last battle in space" is set in the past, with Neo Death Egg being visited in the future. However it doesn't list Neo Green Hill, so it didn't appear to be part of the story yet.

So who knows how the story would have gone after they added NGZ/ARZ to the campaign. Assuming it was indeed visited right before NDEZ, would it have been in the future? Or would it and NDEZ have been set in the past now?

FWIW the fact ARZ is in ruins suggests that it's not set in the past, but the future or present.