Sonic CD's Mysterious Cut R2 Level Discussion - Post Origins Edition

Just to throw out one point that perhaps would favor the possibility of R2 assets in Chaotix: The Genesis VDP handles the level graphics. What you're seeing is the standard 4X 16 color palettes. So the assets could very easily port over with no benefit lost.

That said, again, I think that possibility is rather remote.

 

A quick Google search might've helped you: Hoshino & Mazin

 

I didn't notice that bit of text before, or just didn't think much on it. But for anyone who is going to ask about an R2 connection with Chaotix, it would be MORE beneficial to ask if R2 assets made it into Chaotix period, because we have zero evidence of a Botanic Base connection with R2, let alone any other level. So it'sbreally a shot in the dark, and therefore you shouldn't be so specific unless you really want an answer you're not looking for.

An even better question -- because again, we have no evidence of a Chaotix connection -- would be to ask if R2 assets were reused in another game or another level, and leave the question at that.

 

Not exactly. Yes, the Genesis renders the level graphics, but they use extra color palette entries since the sprites are rendered via the 32X, and thus aren't taking up CRAM.

Here's the palette for Isolated Island at the beginning of the game:


Here's a quick animation of the individual palette lines being highlighted:


You can see that the first 2 palette lines are being used for the background, and the last 2 are being used for the foreground.

Now, here's a typical Sonic CD palette:


The top 2 lines are used for objects, and the bottom 2 are for the stage. Here's another animation with the individual palette lines being highlighted:



To port a Chaotix level into Sonic CD would take quite some work and would require cutting down on the number of colors, due to how 2 palette lines are being used for objects, unlike Chaotix, which uses all 4 palette lines, since sprites aren't rendered by the Genesis VDP. Even if the levels are rendered by the Genesis VDP, they are still using double the colors.

 

I understand that, and I agree that offloading sprites to the 32X frame buffers frees up some of the total Genesis palette. However, my point is you're *still* limited to 16 colors per cell either way you slice it. If you ported 16-bit Sonic level art into Knuckles Chaotix, it would still be an easy transition, and the only way to apply extra colors is to use a different palette line.

I suppose it's just two ways of looking at the same thing... perhaps a glass half-full or half-empty comparison.

 

Oh, I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I thought by porting, you meant back into a Genesis Sonic game, and not porting to Chaotix.

 

Ah, thanks for explaining this. I knew how the Mega Drive and 32X split the work in rendering Chaotix but it never occurred to me that even if the backgrounds were rendered by Mega Drive, they could still be more colorful than a standard game because they didn’t need to take drawing the sprites into account. I was always curious why the backgrounds looked so nice compared to Mega Drive games so I’m glad to know.

 

The shot with the background layer in color and the silhouette of the foreground elements is rad as hell.

 

I feel like people are mistaking what I'm saying.

I'm NOT saying they transferred the background entirely over from Sonic the Hedgehog CD to Chaotix.

I'm suggesting that, potentially, some unseen concept artwork for Dubious Depths' Good Future may have been used to develop Botanic Base, in the same way Cyber City's concept artwork was used to develop The Machine but no actual pixel art was transferred over.

 

I think it’s highly possible. Discarded concepts are reused all the time. There is an overlap in staff so I’d be surprised if they didn’t revisit any cut concepts. Whether or not they reused R2 is another story. I’d tweet a pic of the background to a BG artist who worked on both and ask if there are any similarities.

“People have been speculating if an unused zone from CD was used as inspiration for this stage art - is that possible?”

Something open like may get a better reply than, “IS THIS R2???”

Though as someone who does creative work (music in this case), I reuse concepts all the time but it’d be hard for me to trace a song’s origin directly to one I discarded previously. It’s more like a thousand things you thought of before, and can’t stop thinking about, just flow through your work each time you make something. I think something along those lines is the likely answer we’d get.

 

Regardless, you gave a fantastic explanation. I keep an eye on your Sonic CD thread, and the talk alone is interesting, but your pictures/animations make it 10X better.

I'll happily agree with that. I wouldn't put it past them to reuse some ideas they had before, even subtly.

 

I simply brought it up since Palmtree Panic was the level preceding Dubious Depths, and some levels like Collision Chaos' Past show trees on the horizon.

I point to Botanic Base since it features the rainbow waterfalls we know from existing concept art, fountains that wouldn't look out of place in ruins (literally the only instance, the rest of the island is pretty much Robotnik constructs), the towers allowing water to fall from it like the concepted aqueducts, and is immensely out of character for Robotnik (again, a giant greenhouse to protect plants? Built by Robotnik?!).

It all just screams "Good Future from Sonic the Hedgehog CD", but it's a level from Chaotix. Chaotix, which reuses Metal Sonic, the Mosqui mech and uses the same name for another (the Pata-Bata) that's implied to be a successor due to similar features, the point in time affecting the levels, has Amy Rose cameo, and even reuses the jumping noise.




So, if any game were to reuse concept art from Sonic the Hedgehog CD, I'd honestly put it down to Chaotix.

As to why a Good Future was used, the other Bad Futures are ruins of the modern age, and Dubious Depths appears to be ruins of a bygone age. I think it was the only era of Dubious Depths they could use on the newly constructed base.

 

It's an interesting theory, but that's all it is - a theory. I'd suggest it may be worth asking one of the devs but I wouldn't want people to bother them.

 

Let's remember that reused concept art doesn't always indicate a strong visual connection. For example

Aquatic Ruin and Marble Garden share concept art


Wood Zone and Mushroom Hill also share concept art


If the original zone artist wasn't involved in Chaotix the visual discrepancy would be even bigger.

 

This might not go anywhere, but I don't think it was raised:



The D.A. Garden theme is thought to be "inspired" by Pacific by 808 State (original 12-inch version posted here, but I prefer the Pacific 202 mix, which was more common on the radio)

Naofumi Hataya is a known 808 State fan:



If he was copying their homework for the present version of the zone, there's a chance the other time zones have similarities to their back catalogue too.


also for fun

Top of the Pops was always stupid, but situations like these make for good highlights. Performers didn't play live... and Pacific wasn't "performed". That computer is probably doing all the work.

The young Simon Mayo correctly points out that the "808" is named after a drum machine (the TR-808 by Roland if you care). So why was someone playing drums.

 

Hey that’s a good find, Pacifics’ chords sound nearly identical to the ones found in sonic stream where one of the remixes sits as well as the same bird samples. It’s uncanny how nearly identical they are in that regard.

 

Ha. I knew the chords in 808 were familiar, and the saxophone always sounds like it's interrupting the flow of the song. Now I know why I feel that way, lol.

 

I got bored and decided to extract the two parts of Techno Mix that are supposed to be Dubious Depths' Bad Future music and slap them together for kicks.

 

Sorry, I think I'm out of the loop. Techno Mix?